Indian state proposes two-child policy, stringent measures for violators • Hacker News Board

Re: Indian state proposes two-child policy, stringent measures for violators

#51

Post by ostenning » Sun, Jul 11, 2021, 2:48 PM UTC

shoto_io wrote: post #14

someperson wrote: post #5

India's fertility rate has already fell to about 2.2 children per woman (in 2021). That's already replacement rate. India is one of the few countries with a favorable demographic future right now. The United States and France are also doing ok too (with immigration). But most of Europe and Asia (especially China, Singapore, South Korea and Japan) are facing huge problems: a halving of the population from its peak. An…

I don't understand why a population decrease should be resulting in "huge problems". I am sure it's possible to maintain or even increase happiness and relative wealth while growing smaller. For earth in total, it would be great to see a smaller number of humans.

A population decrease certainly doesn’t have to be counter productive to the economic status quo. But in today’s paradigm it is..

Our paradigm is all mixed up. It’s upside down.

Why do casinos earn billions while exploiting the vulnerable, meanwhile hospitals struggle to get funding? Why do tobacco companies earn billions and poison the population while schools struggle to provide chalk for their teachers? Why does an executive for a superfluous cosmetics or designer clothing company get paid 1000X while we struggle to find enough social workers to try to relieve the massive mental health crises in the west?

Why is it difficult to get paid well in an environmental startup, but easy to get paid well in online betting startup? Why does top talent build products that inflict immeasurable damage to children, teenagers and adults, rather than attempting to solve the ecological crisis we face?

The juxtapositions I have used I believe are completely solvable by a realignment of the way we govern economic policy and what we as a society value. I don’t think it’s a utopian vision, but rather a realistic and a needed realignment.

Realignments need to be made, because what I see today is that our world economy is a destructive debt machine that ultimately is failing the planet and it’s inhabitants

Re: Indian state proposes two-child policy, stringent measures for violators

#52

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Jul 11, 2021, 2:50 PM UTC

11235813213455 wrote: post #32

outlace wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to share the concern with overpopulation, but birth rates are often below replacement in developed countries. I now worry more about the long-term survival of humanity than I do about overpopulation. I expect all countries to eventually become developed and follow the same trend, and eventually the population just naturally dwindles because we become a post-survivalist society and don't care about propagating…

It's not as if humans were an endangered species, wouldn't be bad that the population gradually decrease to 4 billions and less

[deleted]

Re: Indian state proposes two-child policy, stringent measures for violators

#53

Post by sprucely » Sun, Jul 11, 2021, 2:53 PM UTC

shoto_io wrote: post #14

someperson wrote: post #5

India's fertility rate has already fell to about 2.2 children per woman (in 2021). That's already replacement rate. India is one of the few countries with a favorable demographic future right now. The United States and France are also doing ok too (with immigration). But most of Europe and Asia (especially China, Singapore, South Korea and Japan) are facing huge problems: a halving of the population from its peak. An…

I don't understand why a population decrease should be resulting in "huge problems". I am sure it's possible to maintain or even increase happiness and relative wealth while growing smaller. For earth in total, it would be great to see a smaller number of humans.

I believe the problem in any society is that the older generation relies on the younger to care and/or subsidize costs of said care for the older as their health declines. That breaks down when population starts declining.

Re: Indian state proposes two-child policy, stringent measures for violators

#54

Post by edgyquant » Sun, Jul 11, 2021, 3:04 PM UTC

undfg wrote: post #41

pkphilip wrote: post #39

This isn't about population control. This is yet another attempt to oppress Muslims. This state Uttar Pradesh is headed by an Hindu extremist priest who actively uses the arms of the government to persecute minorities. It is a common trope by the Hindu right wing that Muslims are breeding like rabbits in India and may become larger in number than the Hindus.. and the way to control Muslims is by coming up with measur…

[flagged]

Citation needed. I don’t think Muslims are set to be a majority in Europe any time soon.

Re: Indian state proposes two-child policy, stringent measures for violators

#55

Post by tacitusarc » Sun, Jul 11, 2021, 3:43 PM UTC

ostenning wrote: post #51

shoto_io wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why a population decrease should be resulting in "huge problems". I am sure it's possible to maintain or even increase happiness and relative wealth while growing smaller. For earth in total, it would be great to see a smaller number of humans.

A population decrease certainly doesn’t have to be counter productive to the economic status quo. But in today’s paradigm it is.. Our paradigm is all mixed up. It’s upside down. Why do casinos earn billions while exploiting the vulnerable, meanwhile hospitals struggle to get funding? Why do tobacco companies earn billions and poison the population while schools struggle to provide chalk for their teachers? Why does a…

Keep in mind that revenue is higher for both schools and hospitals/healthcare, costs are just also dramatically higher.

Also, social work mostly sucks. It pays terribly, sure, but even without that it’s some of the most exhausting and potentially soul destroying work you can do.

I agree that alignments and incentives need to be adjusted, but I wouldn’t claim to know how.

Re: Indian state proposes two-child policy, stringent measures for violators

#56

Post by creamytaco » Sun, Jul 11, 2021, 3:57 PM UTC

watwut wrote: post #40

naveen99 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who said anything about killing extra children ? They are just proposing 100,000 rupees for limiting to one baby. or some minor economic disincentives for more than 2 babies, on top of which are already there in practice and naturally for even 1 baby. By your logic, if we needed more babies you would stop educating women ? Education and baby making are orthogonal issues.

Educated women who have larger control of their lives tend to choose to have less children. That is how it works. Stopping to educate women and limiting our ability to make own decisions would probably made women have less children. It would however be unethical, cruel and oppressive.

Your argument holds no water and is exposing you as indulging in binary thinking.

Educating women is one possible way to deal with the issue, that doesn't mean it is the _only_ way. Like someone else said, it will take at least a generation for effects to kick in. On the other hand, the policies that the article refers to can be effective immediately (and also applied together with other measures such as educating women).

Re: Indian state proposes two-child policy, stringent measures for violators

#57

Post by nobody0 » Sun, Jul 11, 2021, 3:58 PM UTC

swiley wrote: post #4

But we can't have the alternative that's worked everywhere that's tried it: educating Women. If that happened the pervasive corruption might be questioned. Instead we'll just kill the extra children.

And also developing a booming economy, we have seen the shift happens in East Asia in last three decades, they once was very interested in having childrens now are into a aging stable society where young people continue to put off their marriage.

Re: Indian state proposes two-child policy, stringent measures for violators

#58

Post by intev » Sun, Jul 11, 2021, 4:09 PM UTC

swiley wrote: post #4

But we can't have the alternative that's worked everywhere that's tried it: educating Women. If that happened the pervasive corruption might be questioned. Instead we'll just kill the extra children.

> Instead we'll just kill the extra children.

Hyperbolic much? I agree there might be better ways but everything mentioned only has incentives and seems like a much lighter version of the Chinese policy.

Re: Indian state proposes two-child policy, stringent measures for violators

#59

Post by creamytaco » Sun, Jul 11, 2021, 4:10 PM UTC

tchalla wrote: post #50

cute_boi wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looks like most people don't read the draft and comment whatever they like. It is easy to say educate women but when there are so many women less resource/finance it is hard to scale. This policy will help educating women in a sense that there is incentive. The draft is not about killing extra children but its about preventing the birth. The draft says it will even provide free education to single child. The policy a…

> It is easy to say educate women but when there are so many women less resource/finance it is hard to scale. There are many problems in life that are hard. The difficulty level of the problem can not be used an excuse. You can decide to avoid tackling hard problems and let someone else take care of it if it's "too hard". > I think this is correct way to handle population. India is largely overpopulated anyway. And t…

In any capable administration, a strong degree of pragmatism is required. The difficulty level should not be used as an "excuse" but it should be strongly considered as part of planning. That way, a connection with reality is maintained.

History has taught us that when decisions are made largely based on ideological / moral concerns, that connection with reality is severed and the outcome tends to be, as one would expect, negative if not entirely catastrophic.

This was an important aspect of the world we live in 100 years ago, but it is even more so today, because system complexity and degree of non-linear effects has increased exponentially. Humans are not in any way able to change the system they live in, top-down, regardless of how many of them -still- indulge in this sort of magical thinking. Rather, they should strive to first understand the (localized) parts of the system that directly surround them, and then effect change from the bottom-up, in harmony with the rules and flows of that systemic environment.

In other words, realpolitik should be the order of the day.

Re: Indian state proposes two-child policy, stringent measures for violators

#60

Post by tomjen3 » Sun, Jul 11, 2021, 5:09 PM UTC

inglor_cz wrote: post #49

tomjen3 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a trade-of, as it always is. If you have fewer people involved, you will have to use more machines. By the time I am in an old fokes home I don't need somebody to carry me to the toilet, I can just activate my drone and fly there. That should help with the pressure. Or so I hope.

From what I learnt when my 90 y.o. grandma was slowly approaching her death, getting to the toilet and wiping afterwards are two significant challenges for someone with bad arthritis. So that drone better be rather versatile - or our medicine a lot better in prevention and treatment of arthritis. There is some evidence that stem cells can alleviate arthritis, so we may yet benefit from better treatments thereof.

I am sorry to hear about your grandmother.

I would assume the drone would move me and then we would finally have a bidet/toilet combo to fix the rest.

I don't mean that drones will be able to fix every problem, just that they will be one component in helping older people stay mobile and reduce the care necessary.