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Ethiopia's controversial mega-dam on Nile tributary

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Re: Ethiopia's controversial mega-dam on Nile tributary

#121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is Egypt a mess before the British came exactly? How was India a mess?

I'll assume you're genuinely ignorant and not asking rhetorical questions here. In which caseWikipedia gives a good starting point. Egypt: > Muslim rulers nominated by the Islamic Caliphate remained in control of Egypt for the next six centuries, with Cairo as the seat of the Caliphate under the Fatimids. With the end of the Kurdish Ayyubid dynasty, the Mamluks, a Turco-Circassian military caste, took control about A…

Nothing about your first quote shows Egypt in any kind of mess. Your second quote ends over a century before the British protectorate, and at best pushes the blame onto Portugal or the Ottomans.

You seem to be condensing centuries of history into only the worst parts. Yes, bad things happened before colonialism. Colonialism was still horrible.

Re: Ethiopia's controversial mega-dam on Nile tributary

#122
post #78
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> * More than half of Ethiopia's 110 million people have no electric power. > * Almost all of Ethiopia is under some level of food stress. Where is a country like Ethiopia getting all the money for such a mega-project? > * This happened due to Colonial era agreements in which great Britain Typical, colonial forces left a mess everywhere they went. India-Pakistan, Israel-Palestine, pretty much all of Africa, my histor…

I'm not sure what argument you're making; that it was the fault of the British for not colonising Ethiopia?

I read that as the British left a mess by allocating 70% of Ethiopia's water to Egypt even though the British had no legitimate claim or control over Ethiopia.

Though even if the British had been in control of Ethiopia, I would argue it was still problematic to allocate 70% of their water to Egypt. It was just a fundamentally bad arrangement. So fundamentally bad that I can only assume the British, at the time, had no idea how the Nile actually worked. Maybe the field of hydrology was not quite so well developed, and the Nile was not quite so well studied? I try not to attribute to malice what can reasonably be explained by ineptitude.

Re: Ethiopia's controversial mega-dam on Nile tributary

#123
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AFAIK post-1989 Iran had a huge drop in fertility coupled with government intervention: " The decline was slow until the government population policy was reversed and a new family planning program was officially inaugurated in December 1989. Total fertility rate fell sharply after 1989, dropping from 5.5 in 1988 to below 2.8 in 1996, more than a 50 per cent decline in 6 years. The own-children estimates of fertility…

The economy grew rapidly following the end of the Iran-Iraq war. You'd expect to see a rapid drop as the economy recovered. It is possible the policy changes also had an effect, but again the point is not that policy changes can't have an effect, but that we don't know.

IDK, a lot of other countries actually experienced a baby boom immediately after end of a war. There are pro-natality effects to a war->peace transition. Men coming back and wanting to leave the bad experience behind by founding families. End of rationing system for food and other life necessities. Real estate demand decreasing because a lot of young people were killed.

Re: Ethiopia's controversial mega-dam on Nile tributary

#124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're all happy the election (most of it anyways) concluded peacefully. There was a fear of violence that didn't materialize. The results indicate a massive win for the PM's party. Given how popular he is, I was expecting his party to win, but not by this margin. As for Tigray, people here are really pessimistic. Over the past 8 months, the Ethiopian government narrative was that the people of Tigray and the politica…

That's super interesting, thanks for sharing! I admit to being pretty confused by all of the politics and fighting; my impression is that the power of the TPLF came from 1) their military capacity and 2) the fact they had previously held a disproportionate number of senior positions and could give favors to Tigrayans. But given their main demand seemed to be succession and they could have demanded that as per the con…

The TPLF led Ethiopia for 27 years. They are a tiny minority so the perception here is they used a divided and conquer strategy to govern. They were basically pitting the two large ethnic groups against each other and playing the peace-maker. The most common rhetoric on national television was about how they liberated the Oromo from the Amhara. That resulted in the Amhara developing a lot of animosity towards TPLF because, I'm paraphrasing, "Why should I, a poor person, be blamed for something someone did 200 years ago". In addition, TPLF took some lands away from the Amhara region when they came to power (What you hear in the media as "Western Tigray") and that has caused major anger. TPLF had Marxist origin, and they had to give names to their "ideological enemies". So Amhara were "Chauvinists" and the Oromo were "Narrow minded". This also rubs people the wrong way. I'm cringing as I write this, the whole thing is insane.

When it comes to Eritrea, They, for a long time were not in good terms with Tigrayans. This animosity actually predates the current conflict or the border war. There are a lot of nuances involved but generally speaking, it wouldn't be wrong to say those two are not friends. Of course the current conflict multiplied the hate a thousand fold.

The reason I'm writing this down is to give you a sense of the broader picture. In this scenario, an Independent Tigray will be a small and mostly very poor population in a dry area, with unfriendly neighbors. And the area has little natural resources to speak of, so it's not like USA or China would care to invest long term in it. The people of Tigray are hardy and disciplined but TPLF is a tyrannical organization, it's not the kind of government in which free thought and enterprise can thrive. In such a scenario, breaking away from Ethiopia don't make much sense. I suspect it would be disastrous. I think they know this.

* In my opinion, they started the war not to break away from Ethiopia but to topple the current Ethiopian government which they hate for breaking their near 3 decade rule of Ethiopia I think they started the war to topple the government and retain at least some of these benefits they lost under PM Abiy and perhaps more importantly, work to create a more opportune environment that would allow Tigray to break away.

* About the ceasefire, it's good and absolutely essential. THey have to farm this rainy season or the food insecurity will be 10x worse. But there is a problem, TPLF and most of Tigrayans *that I have talked to* thinks they won a military victory and they want to use the momentum to "liberate" western Tigray. Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if fighting resumed in those areas.

* As for Eritrea, they were probably invited in at a time of great danger for the Ethiopian military and they helped. People are grateful here, not angry. Of course some of the senseless atrocities have caused the enthusiasm to die down a bit but there seems to be a consensus (right or wrong) that most coverage of the war has a bit of propaganda in it.. a bit of manufactured consent, when people hear about atrocities, they're immediately wondering about who wrote it, what their motive is... this reduces the impact the news would have.

* I am really excited for the Safaricom deal. But I and a lot of people are expecting the US governments to place some sanctions on us wrecking the deal. So not sure if it will go through. I do indeed work in tech. And I have been working remotely for the past year and half. Bad and expensive internet connection is extremely frustrating. And it's hard for collogues abroad to understand the level of difficulty. Imagine trying to communicate a weird bug in the codebase that you don't even fully understand to collogues in Europe (with broken English) only find out you were disconnected minutes ago. It's painful. The safaricom deal promises 8 billion USD investment in telecom. I am absolutely excited for that and will switch if it's better.

The tech scene is unfortunately NOT as developed as it should be. Internet connectivity, power issues are factors, government procedures and policy over the decades. I think they feared tech and their policies directly and indirectly affected the industry.

An instance of government indirectly stifling growth: There is a government body called Information Network Security Agency (INSA). It was actually founded by the current PM. He was removed and over time, the agency started to moonlight as a the preferred tech company that government agencies work with. They had tens of thousands of employees and can win contracts due to political connections. In the past decade it dominated most government contracts for making software. They thought they were saving money but it was those kinds of contracts that would have allowed the private sector to develop. And to no ones surprised, the stuff they did was often of low quality and over budget.

And 5 or 6 years ago the government wanted to ban VOIP tech (prison time for using). In a separate instance, I very vaguely remember the then director of the agency, a military general (From TPLF ofc) talking about how local developers should consider working on security products rather than communication apps.

That said, there are a few interesting tech companies. We have the local clones of Uber. And they're pretty good (The Tigrayan taxi I mentioned earlier was actually driving for one of these). Food delivery startups. There are lots of companies developing health care logistic related software (lots of funding from USA on that area). A major payment platform in Nigeria (PAGA) is developed here also. There are labs that work on ML, I think the robot the Saudi's gave citizenship to was partially developed here. Right now, one of the current PM's initiative is to digitize Ethiopia. A focus area within the initiative are mobile payment solutions. This will breath new life on both business and tech.

Re: Ethiopia's controversial mega-dam on Nile tributary

#125
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> things still are in such disarray so long after they retreated What is “so long”? Reading online, I see that Ethiopia was not fully colonized, but Europe/UK were attacking and meddling in its affairs even in the 1930s. What most of the West doesn’t realize, is that colonization is majorly impactful and leads to disarray for decades, if not centuries. Countries need time to stabilize, after being systematically dism…

Is this the case? This seems to take the view that pre-colonisation these countries were modern functioning states; and that it was the coloniser which "destabilised them". However this seems to be rarely, if ever, the case. Colonised countries were extremely pre-modern compared to coloniser-states, and as far as I'm aware, routinely the purpose of colonisation was to establish such thing as a functioning state -- fo…

Our idea of a "modern functioning state" relies on concepts of sovereignty that didn't begin to gain wide purchase in Europe before the Peace of Westphalia—at least 150 years after European colonial efforts had begun.

The colonial project in Europe was concomitant with the development of western concepts of national sovereignty and the emergence of the modern bureaucratic state. In fact, many features of modern governments emerged specifically as mechanisms to implement colonial policies, and the material resources that were used to build up the institutions of many Western states were largely extracted from the colonies. In light of that, it seems strange for you to critique colonized polities for being "pre-modern" prior to colonization when European colonizers were themselves largely pre-modern before colonization efforts began, and themselves modernized—both in material terms, and in terms of the sophistication of their institutions—at the expense of their colonies.

That "the purpose of colonization was to establish such a thing as a functioning state" is only true in a technical sense. The ultimate purpose of colonization was extraction, and in order to implement extractive policies, modern bureaucratic institutions needed to be established, both at home and in the colonies. Many colonizers, when they departed, may have left their colonies with governing institutions that resembled the institutions that the colonizers had created at home—but only in the way that franchisee businesses resemble the businesses of their franchisors. Colonial governments depended entirely on their metropole for essential aspects of governance, and could not serve any meaningful function without tight integration with their home country governments. This even remains true of some post-colonial governments today.

Even if colonial institutions had been established "for the sake of enabling trade and commerce" those institutions would have been insufficient to govern independent states. But the terms "trade and commerce" presume the existence of peer counter-parties who are able to negotiate at an arms length to arrive at arrangements that benefit all parties. Colonial institutions were not at all established for that purpose—they were established for the purpose of resource extraction at the expense of a subjugated population. A governmental orientation towards trade and commerce could have given former colonies at least a starting point on the road towards economic development, but in actuality the governing institutions that former colonies inherited were entirely oriented towards giving the industries of their former colonizers uninterrupted and privileged access to cheap labor and cheap resources.

European colonial governments employed many different tactics to deliberately destabilize colonized polities—destroying, subjugating or co-opting pre-colonial (and post-colonial!) governing institutions; intentionally pitting rival ethnic, class and religious groups against each other; creating borders within the contiguous territory of cohesive ethnic & linguistic groups, while forcing groups with disparate languages and cultures to share the same government [1]; denying indigenous people equal (or, in many cases, any) opportunities for social, economic, and political advancement; suppressing (and often stamping out) indigenous languages, cultures and religions; suppressing independent local industries that might compete with industries in the metropole; and suppressing independent political thought and local political institutions—all of which had the effect of preventing the development of institutions within the colonies that could keep pace with the development of modern institutions in Europe.

The underlying objective of the colonial project itself, however, was perhaps the most destabilizing. The system as a whole was designed and implemented to maximize the flow of economic value out of the colonies and into the metropole. Every institution was optimized for that purpose, and any element of local politics or culture that did not contribute in some way to that effort was discouraged, suppressed, or eliminated, through the (often violent) application of state power.

GP is entirely correct to write that "colonization is majorly impactful and leads to disarray for decades, if not centuries," and that "countries need time to stabilize, after being systematically dismantled and robbed by colonizers."

Re: Ethiopia's controversial mega-dam on Nile tributary

#126
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> C. The renaissance dam is a gravity dam. Giant concrete structure. It's not going to be easy to destroy. To put this into concrete terms: the Renaissance dam is 476ft tall. According to Wikipedia[0], non-nuclear bunker buster bombs are limited to a penetration depth of ~20ft of reinforced concrete, which would barely dent a dam this size. Even the USAF would have a hard time destroying this dam from the air. [0] ht…

What if erosion were the driving force? A smaller attack could be devastating if one or several targeted strikes caused a spill and damaged directive devises such that it began an active process of erosion. It's a failure mode I greatly fear for all mega-projects.

It would take thousands of years. Dams are strong enough to outlast us.

Re: Ethiopia's controversial mega-dam on Nile tributary

#127
post #69

Let's say Ethopia goes through with this. Would it be cheaper to start a war against them or spend money on tech to reduce dependence on the Nile? I imagine that a campaign to improve education in Egypt and train the populace for jobs to reduce Nile dependence would be a major boost to the Egyptian economy. It might drive the country to innovate and fuel a boom in their tech and engineering sector. Are there any feas…

This is a very Silicon Valley approach to a problem. How do you expect to solve a water crisis with tech and engineering, within months, not decades? There's only so much desalination plants you can build and operate... Given that this can easily be understood as an existential threat to Egypt, war seems likely.

Why is thinking of ways to solve a problem without war a "Silicon Valley approach"?

I think you need to assess the situation and calculate the costs and benefits of every approach.

- How many people will die due to war and how many will die due to the dam?

- How long will it take for a war to yield results?

- Are there other possible solutions that will yield results more quickly?

- What will be the effects of the different approaches?

I haven't searched for a list, but Israel desalinates >500M m³ of seawater per year https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_supply_and_sanitation_in...

Saudi Arabia is going to start building solar domes for the line city Neom: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvN1oV3AJ90

Cario, Egypt has ~3.4k hours of sun per year https://weather-and-climate.com/average-monthly-hours-Sunshi...

They need about 80B m³ per year (mostly due to agriculture) of which 55.5B m³ come from the Nile.

- https://www.worldometers.info/water/egypt-water/#water-use

- https://water.fanack.com/egypt/water-use/

Those 55.5B m³ won't just disappear like that.

Again, how much would it cost to scale desalination up, reduce agricultural water and land use, and how long would it take to do it? How much would it cost to wage a war and when would it be over? Years? Decades?

Would it be easier to find out who's been contracted to build the damn and find a way to get them not to do it?

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It's easy to be the "it won't work" person and to reach for the bluntest tool in the metaphorical shed without putting in a modicum of effort to explore another avenue.

Re: Ethiopia's controversial mega-dam on Nile tributary

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is Egypt a mess before the British came exactly? How was India a mess?

I'll assume you're genuinely ignorant and not asking rhetorical questions here. In which caseWikipedia gives a good starting point. Egypt: > Muslim rulers nominated by the Islamic Caliphate remained in control of Egypt for the next six centuries, with Cairo as the seat of the Caliphate under the Fatimids. With the end of the Kurdish Ayyubid dynasty, the Mamluks, a Turco-Circassian military caste, took control about A…

It doesn't. It just shows you think Islamic Caliphate means a mess.

Re: Ethiopia's controversial mega-dam on Nile tributary

#129
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> * More than half of Ethiopia's 110 million people have no electric power. > * Almost all of Ethiopia is under some level of food stress. Where is a country like Ethiopia getting all the money for such a mega-project? > * This happened due to Colonial era agreements in which great Britain Typical, colonial forces left a mess everywhere they went. India-Pakistan, Israel-Palestine, pretty much all of Africa, my histor…

> What's crazy is how things still are in such disarray so long after they retreated. I think it's adorable that you think they "retreated". Perhaps in another forum I can give you a "low-down" on why the African former colonies are an economic mess, why France and England left physically but not politically or economically, and ofcourse why African leaders visit European powers as one of the first things they do aft…

I think it's quite condescending of you to think I'm some naive, little child who's seen nothing of the world.

Perhaps you should first learn how to be polite and first try to ask questions, before assuming everyone is dumber than you.

Re: Ethiopia's controversial mega-dam on Nile tributary

#130
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> * More than half of Ethiopia's 110 million people have no electric power. > * Almost all of Ethiopia is under some level of food stress. Where is a country like Ethiopia getting all the money for such a mega-project? > * This happened due to Colonial era agreements in which great Britain Typical, colonial forces left a mess everywhere they went. India-Pakistan, Israel-Palestine, pretty much all of Africa, my histor…

> Where is a country like Ethiopia getting all the money for such a mega-project? The major source: For most of the decade, for each bank loan, 27% of it goes to the construction of the dam. And then, most employees have given at least 1 month of their salary to the dam.

> And then, most employees have given at least 1 month of their salary to the dam.

Are you talking about taxes?

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