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“One Day Longer and Those 13 Boys Would Be Dead”

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Re: “One Day Longer and Those 13 Boys Would Be Dead”

#61
post #47

I still don't get it. The tunnels were too narrow near the ceilling, but wide near the floor. The divers could not keep at the floor because they could not navigate due to zero visibility, zero communication and no tether points. Would not a sonar help? A full spacesuit-like helmet with air to be able to talk via radio? Laying down some flexible tunnels that could be inflated with air or maybe just pumped with clear…

> Would not a sonar help?

Portable sonar systems with in-helmet displays were put in use by the US Navy only last year: https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2021/03/us-navy-teams-w...

> A full spacesuit-like helmet with air to be able to talk via radio?

Would fuck up your buoyancy, but there are systems where you have only an air pockt around your mouth. But the range would be so low as to be nearly useless inside a cave.

> Laying down some flexible tunnels that could be inflated with air or maybe just pumped with clear water to gain visibility?

Even assuming that you had those already available, laying them would be a very slow process, and they would be a hindrance rather than help in very narrow passages.

Re: “One Day Longer and Those 13 Boys Would Be Dead”

#62
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea haha I was going to remind folks of that too. Elon was building a submarine that everyone involved told him was a terrible idea and to please leave them alone because he was hampering the effort, and Elon responded by calling one of the lead rescuers a “pedo guy” and got sued over it. I believe his defense was that “pedo guy” was a common insult in South Africa. Simpler times haha.

Musk showed his true character.

It was an asshole thing to say, but I don't think someone being an asshole means that that moment defines their "true character"

Re: “One Day Longer and Those 13 Boys Would Be Dead”

#63
post #45

The most harrowing thing I have read in a long time. I can't even begin to fathom the immense bravery of these divers - and that of the boys. I didn't really follow the Musk bit of the story, but the fact that he had the audacity to shitpost about any of these guys make me think vastly less of him (and I'm usually in the Musk-respecter camp)

Lets not make this comments section about an idiots disparagement of a hero.

Re: “One Day Longer and Those 13 Boys Would Be Dead”

#65
post #45

The most harrowing thing I have read in a long time. I can't even begin to fathom the immense bravery of these divers - and that of the boys. I didn't really follow the Musk bit of the story, but the fact that he had the audacity to shitpost about any of these guys make me think vastly less of him (and I'm usually in the Musk-respecter camp)

When Musk first appeared I was hugely supportive. Definitely a fan of what he was doing both with SpaceX and Tesla. I'm still a fan of what those companies are doing but Elon has destroyed my view of him with his own behavior and words. We should stop turning a blind eye to his labor practices. Likewise, we should give the engineers and other workers that are actually accomplishing these things more credit, vs preten…

Gwynne Shotwell deserves far more of the credit for SpaceX than Musk does.

Re: “One Day Longer and Those 13 Boys Would Be Dead”

#66
post #41
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I respect Musk more than many commenters you see around. I understand he's not the billionaire savior many people seem to believe. I remember him mentioning something about how the sub couldn't go wrong because if the kids got there and the water rose, it should get where the kids were. How feasible was it, really?

It was never even remotely feasible. Musk's design was simply too large to fit through the restrictions in the cave. It's the kind of nonsense that only someone with no real diving experience could come up with.

The restrictions were in the upper part. The article explains the boys walked in through a much larger path underneath.

Re: “One Day Longer and Those 13 Boys Would Be Dead”

#67
post #45

The most harrowing thing I have read in a long time. I can't even begin to fathom the immense bravery of these divers - and that of the boys. I didn't really follow the Musk bit of the story, but the fact that he had the audacity to shitpost about any of these guys make me think vastly less of him (and I'm usually in the Musk-respecter camp)

Vernon Unsworth. He sued Musk for libel in the United States and lost. Musk not only called him "pedo guy" on Twitter, but implied he had married a child bride, when he hadn't, and later hired a private investigator to dry to dig up dirt on Unsworth, which found nothing. Musk also sent this letter to Buzzfeed where he doubled down. He thought it was off the record, and says some terrible things: https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/ryanmac/elon-musk-thai-...

It came out later that the private investigator was scamming Elon Musk, and lied to him about finding damaging information. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/oct/08/elon-musk...

Bizarrely, Unsworth's lawyer was L Lin Wood, famous for later apparently having a mental breakdown and supporting conspiracy theories accusing chief justice John Roberts of pedophilia and murder, and being asked to undergo a mental examination by the state bar of Georgia.

L Lin Wood's handling of the Unsworth trial was widely panned as incompetent. Unsworth is clearly a hero, and Musk inserting himself into that situation and permanently tainting Unsworth's name was unconscionable.

https://reason.com/2020/12/31/pro-trump-lawyer-tries-to-impl...

https://reason.com/2021/01/31/treating-lin-woods-wild-conspi...

https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-defamation-win-mis...

Re: “One Day Longer and Those 13 Boys Would Be Dead”

#68
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Elon Musk is a grown man, not a child, and he should be capable of tact and self control. "He started it" is not a valid excuse for his public, slanderous little temper tantrum.

capable != required If he seriously proposes to help and is told to stick it where he hurts, he can choose whether or not to respond with 'tact and self control' but he isn't required to. The diver is the one without tact and self control, but you slag elon for responding in kind instead of the diver. You expect more from musk but musk owes you nothing - not even tact. He doesn't have to accept abuse from someone els…

Musk is still a dick for the comment. He was butt hurt, because his stoner idea of a tiny submarine was met with the "umm, WTF" that it should by actual people saving the kids lives.

Re: “One Day Longer and Those 13 Boys Would Be Dead”

#69
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Musk showed his true character.

It was an asshole thing to say, but I don't think someone being an asshole means that that moment defines their "true character"

An expert in the field risks their life to save children, is accused of being a peadophile. That's a long way from being an a-hole.

Re: “One Day Longer and Those 13 Boys Would Be Dead”

#70
post #47

I still don't get it. The tunnels were too narrow near the ceilling, but wide near the floor. The divers could not keep at the floor because they could not navigate due to zero visibility, zero communication and no tether points. Would not a sonar help? A full spacesuit-like helmet with air to be able to talk via radio? Laying down some flexible tunnels that could be inflated with air or maybe just pumped with clear…

> Would not a sonar help?

I'm not even sure what you're envisioning but something lightweight and not bulky that is capable of producing sonar images similar to whatever the detectors were in Aliens doesn't exist. And it was zero viz and in completely zero viz you can barely see your hand in front of your mask, assuming you have illumination.

> A full spacesuit-like helmet with air to be able to talk via radio?

That creates a dead space that fills up with CO2, you'd need to actively pump that out through the rebreather which now creates more things to bash into rock and fail and kill you, plus generates more bulk which is the last thing you want into those tight caves.

You can use a full face mask (FFM) that has comms with a rebreather but in a single file cave there's no point and cave divers know how to communicate in single file in zero viz by touch contact. And there's not much to communicate since either you're moving or you're temporarily stuck and the person behind you can't really help you much. With a rebreather you can also talk pretty well in water if you're just close enough to each other. I've also managed to communicate effectively by talking into a normal scuba regulator as well, without having to write anything down.

> Laying down some flexible tunnels that could be inflated with air or maybe just pumped with clear water to gain visibility?

That would probably take weeks and you'd be fighting the pressure of the incoming water inside of the cave. Air probably wouldn't work at all, you'd need to build a pressure differential airlock so that's likely impossibly complicated. Water might work if you built a reservoir at a higher altitude to gain pressure, but them you need to pump the water up there and you need flexible inflatable tubing that can hold a couple atmospheres of pressure and is large enough for a human, and I think I'd prefer to be surrounded by rock rather than by saran wrap that could fail and I'd get entangled it in the shredded plastic and drown. No thanks. As evidenced by the successful recovery, zero viz can be dealt with.

> So many ideas come to mind, but they chose the most difficult transport of sedated and tied up kids ever. I assume they had a good reason, but still do not understand it.

They're all trained at more or less doing that, they've been through the environment, and they've all been through rescue training to drag an unconscious buddy out of the cave. Strapping the kids down, giving them sedatives and putting a FFM on them solved all the problems of taking someone out of the cave that wasn't trained in diving at all. It gives you the smallest package to drag out of the cave along with giving you access to the kids. The coffin that Musk was proposing was more or less just that. By trying to keep the kids dry, now you have CO2 problems, you need a scrubber in the coffin and you need strong enough walls to deal with the pressure differential, that creates bulk and makes it more difficult to move through the restrictions, and if anything goes wrong the kids suffocate and die and there's no access to them at all.

From the perspective of a trained cave diver the solution that they used was nearly perfect.

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