Programmers, teach non-geeks the true cost of interruptions (2014) • Hacker News Board

Re: Programmers, teach non-geeks the true cost of interruptions (2014)

#221

Post by vjdingdong » Sat, Jul 10, 2021, 1:41 PM UTC

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #12

> Your non-techie peers just don’t get it, no matter how many times you try to make them understand. We really need to get past this smug idea that tech work is uniquely difficult in a way that no one else can understand. Any deep work suffers from interruptions, and programming isn't the only type of work that has significant mental context. This idea that programmers are uniquely vulnerable does no favors when tryi…

The author describes a context while he's debugging. I think an analogy would be a chess game, where the player has built/planned your stack of several 'look ahead' moves. And then you get interrupted. That can be indeed be very disruptive for a human brain. A computer can save that 'stack' and resume, not so for a human brain to recover your context. Programming has its unique things. Not to deny the other unique situations (underwater panel, clinician's analysis etc) that have been mentioned in the various threads of this discussion.

Re: Programmers, teach non-geeks the true cost of interruptions (2014)

#222

Post by ncphil » Sat, Jul 10, 2021, 1:49 PM UTC

lordnacho wrote: post #103

lelandbatey wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Describing a lawyer as an "intuitivist" is pretty hilarious. Their work, especially surrounding contract work, can be extremely programming like, with very particular language, highly technical and specific terms/wording, and there absolutely are many cases where typing one thing wrong (such as a misplaced comma) can (and has[1]) completely change the meaning of crucial sections of contracts. [1] - https://www.bbc.co…

The list was different earlier. Obviously I can't know about what every profession does, not even my own. But I've interacted with enough professionals of various sorts to say I don't think the intricacy is the same. Ymmv

It is. Before becoming a sysadmin I was a lawyer for 12 years. Never had trouble with interruptions while on my feet in court (except for my adversary, or the judge), but it was a real problem when drafting contracts or auditing complex estate accounts. Sure, you could multitask easily in a real estate closing or a trial settlement conference. But a lot of the work required shutting the private office door and asking the staff to "hold all calls". To be fair, sysadmin work was a lot less stressful and more rewarding -- except when it came time to write or debug code. That, and troubleshooting WebLogic services, Apache threads, the network team's firewall rules or database performance.

The real problem is that, culturally, most people aren't ready to accept software development as a high wire, professional, activity. That still would disturb this fantasy they have about tech being "intuitive" or managable in any meaningful way for non-experts. Those of us on the inside know that's b.s.

Re: Programmers, teach non-geeks the true cost of interruptions (2014)

#223

Post by james-skemp » Sat, Jul 10, 2021, 2:01 PM UTC

the_other wrote: post #204

mtsr wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would recommend trying the pomodoro method: 25 minutes of work, 5 minute break away from screens, repeat. 30 minute break after a few cycles. I’ve discovered I’m much more in touch with my mental and emotional state and even a five minute break will really relieve some of the pressure you put on your mind and body. Also because it’s just for 25 minutes anyway, it’s much easier to get started again, even with unfun…

I used to use an app that had both a timer and a notepad. It was helpful for sketching out pointers to where I’d reached. A quick scan before restarting the next 25min, especially after a meeting or lunch, was very helpful. Being in the same app helped connect it to each session.

Do you recall the name of it?

Starting a new job and that may finally be enough of a change to trigger me actually trying this after all these years of hearing about it.

Re: Programmers, teach non-geeks the true cost of interruptions (2014)

#224

Post by smcl » Sat, Jul 10, 2021, 2:06 PM UTC

mtsr wrote: post #196

ideamotor wrote: post #167

Interruptions are very challenging with any deep work that takes hours. This is true. What I am facing however, is a related issue. Perhaps because I have not been doing much programming lately, I find it increasingly difficult to actually get and be in the zone. When I go in, I go all in, and enter a kind of fugue state where the hours slip away. While for some this may sound advantageous, in the past, it has been a…

I would recommend trying the pomodoro method: 25 minutes of work, 5 minute break away from screens, repeat. 30 minute break after a few cycles. I’ve discovered I’m much more in touch with my mental and emotional state and even a five minute break will really relieve some of the pressure you put on your mind and body. Also because it’s just for 25 minutes anyway, it’s much easier to get started again, even with unfun…

Yeah good point. I think it's also different since the interruption is on your own terms - you've deliberately given yourself 5 minutes break from some task so that you be more focused over the lifetime of that task. You're (hopefully) not getting other tasks thrown at you which can take up precious mental resources or destroy context you've been slowly building up in your head.

Re: Programmers, teach non-geeks the true cost of interruptions (2014)

#225

Post by eggy » Sat, Jul 10, 2021, 2:25 PM UTC

H8crilA wrote: post #217

eggy wrote: post #52

I have been programming since 1977/78, and sometimes for work, but most of the time for fun. As someone who does technical work at heights with rope access, and many years of technical diving on hydraulics, pneumatic, and electrical equipment, I can say it all depends on your ability to shut out interruptions and get to a good stopping point. I get frustrated when I am programming and I am interrupted, but my most fr…

Wow, what made you keep a job with such unreasonably high stress from the upper management? I would've told them to fuck off at some point, probably the second or third time someone is being this unreasonable.

First, solve the problem at hand. Second, then make your grievances. Always take the high road, and debate later, unless it's a life or death situation. Principles before personalities.

Re: Programmers, teach non-geeks the true cost of interruptions (2014)

#226

Post by eggy » Sat, Jul 10, 2021, 2:28 PM UTC

vjdingdong wrote: post #216

eggy wrote: post #52

I have been programming since 1977/78, and sometimes for work, but most of the time for fun. As someone who does technical work at heights with rope access, and many years of technical diving on hydraulics, pneumatic, and electrical equipment, I can say it all depends on your ability to shut out interruptions and get to a good stopping point. I get frustrated when I am programming and I am interrupted, but my most fr…

Your interruptions/work-context are way out there in terms of stress/impact etc. APL and J : Agreed. Haskell is my refuge when Python starts getting verbose. Even if you're interrupted, there's a slim chance with concise languages that you could carry that line in your head even as you are dragged away from your context.

I do love Haskell too, but I am only a dilettante. I played with Euterpea[1], and I like it's mathematical bent like J and APL. I could probably get more practical work done with Haskell, but I like the way J and APL make me iterate on a short piece of code until it is a diamond. I should look at Haskell again...

I sometimes write J by hand on paper.

[1] https://www.euterpea.com/haskell-school-of-music/

Re: Programmers, teach non-geeks the true cost of interruptions (2014)

#227

Post by H8crilA » Sat, Jul 10, 2021, 2:31 PM UTC

eggy wrote: post #225

H8crilA wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, what made you keep a job with such unreasonably high stress from the upper management? I would've told them to fuck off at some point, probably the second or third time someone is being this unreasonable.

First, solve the problem at hand. Second, then make your grievances. Always take the high road, and debate later, unless it's a life or death situation. Principles before personalities.

What grievances? I just mean there's a ton of jobs out there and some of them come with high management pressure, while others don't. And I'm trying to figure out why would specific people take the more stressful kind, for example is there something that compensates for that? Maybe a generous vacation schedule / low workload most of the time?

Re: Programmers, teach non-geeks the true cost of interruptions (2014)

#228

Post by eggy » Sat, Jul 10, 2021, 2:35 PM UTC

lostphilosopher wrote: post #142

eggy wrote: post #52

I have been programming since 1977/78, and sometimes for work, but most of the time for fun. As someone who does technical work at heights with rope access, and many years of technical diving on hydraulics, pneumatic, and electrical equipment, I can say it all depends on your ability to shut out interruptions and get to a good stopping point. I get frustrated when I am programming and I am interrupted, but my most fr…

FWIW I think you could write an interesting book.

Thank you. I've been torn about a private vs. public life. I have always enjoyed the immediacy of the moment in life having lost friends while still in my teens. I am very tech savvy, and I love GoPros and smartphones for what they are, but I rarely film or photo myself. I do journal, so perhaps when I stop playing around, I'll try writing a book for my children.

Re: Programmers, teach non-geeks the true cost of interruptions (2014)

#229

Post by MereInterest » Sat, Jul 10, 2021, 2:39 PM UTC

SamBam wrote: post #80

Zababa wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Instead, communicate like peers: "Sorry, I'm in the middle of something important. Can you come back at lunch time?" That's already too late though. At this point I've already lost what I was doing.

I feel like if your mental model of the program is so fragile that even saying "Sorry, I'm in the middle of something important" breaks it, then it may be worth working out how to ground more of it. When I find myself six or seven levels deep in a stack, I often realize I need to open up a new coding window and write myself some quick notes.

I tend to use slack this way. Writing out my thought process helps to clarify things, even if I don't ever hit the send button. And if I do hit send, then it gives a good sense of what has been done, and how.

Re: Programmers, teach non-geeks the true cost of interruptions (2014)

#230

Post by eggy » Sat, Jul 10, 2021, 2:44 PM UTC

H8crilA wrote: post #227

eggy wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, solve the problem at hand. Second, then make your grievances. Always take the high road, and debate later, unless it's a life or death situation. Principles before personalities.

What grievances? I just mean there's a ton of jobs out there and some of them come with high management pressure, while others don't. And I'm trying to figure out why would specific people take the more stressful kind, for example is there something that compensates for that? Maybe a generous vacation schedule / low workload most of the time?

In my case, foreign travel and living, very good pay, and I guess I am an adventure junkie. Diving, ropes, bungee jumping, motorcycles, and many other things take my fancy, but sometimes just living somewhere that takes me outside myself. How do you put a value on that? Also, when there's a high signal to noise ratio, the truth tempers it for me no matter who or how much they bluster. For somebody, breaking a finger nail can be a full day ordeal, and that's not being totally sarcastic, but realizing that you need to understand what perspective the other person has. The COO/CFO is looking at managing the fallout of your immediate emergency, so they have other things on their minds, and perhaps they don't maintain a professional persona that day, but hey, I have my bad days too, and I'd like to get through it as smoothly as possible. When you are fast to point your finger at someone, remember, there are three of your own fingers pointing right back at you!