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“Cat Person” and Me

slate.com

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Re: “Cat Person” and Me

#81

Post by normac2 »

The most obvious takeaway here is how she was wronged by Roupernian, but maybe a just-as-interesting takeaway is that the real Charles was a three-dimensional person with some good traits, and not just an avatar of all semi-neckbeardy creepy men.

Of course, it's pretty clear the story wants to serve as some kind of stylized and boiled-down version of some of the disturbing stuff that women experience dating. But this kind of prompts you to stop and think about the real people on the other side, as well.

Re: “Cat Person” and Me

#82

Post by scandox »

caslon wrote: post #13
danso wrote: post #5

One of the most incredible essays I’ve read in a long time. The author describes a bizarre situation exacerbated by tragedy. There’s no clear remedy or villain for what she’s going through, and that’s just the way life is. I liked the “Cat Person” story when it came out, but I would much rather see this essay be made into a movie

Isn't there a villain, though? A creepy internet stalker writes a story about her stalkee's life, monetizes it and gets critical acclaim (and, again, a seven-figure advance for a collection of short stories that only had value due to that story ) for it, causing her strife? I can't help but feel that there's a clear villain here, and a villain that's trying to paint herself as the victim at that.

This is a very slippery slope. Writers imbibe all kinds of details from life, from gossip, from their families....writers are interested in people's lives. The only difference here is the apparently stark difference of her using social media as her source of detail. But it's really no different than if she read a newspaper article about someone online and borrowed detail from that.

Perhaps the only crime here, if crime there be, is an artistic one: the story is just a bit shallow.

Re: “Cat Person” and Me

#83

Post by GeoAtreides »

sdwr wrote: post #69
prvc wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A superficial appraisal of the situation would have Cat Person be a mere amalgam of details plagiarized from social media with an ideologically derived ersatz-archetype-- a lie bolstered by purloined facts. This article, however, brings for the first time depth and truth to the former text. Flaubert famously quipped, "Madame Bovary, c'est moi!". In the same vein, the ugly side of Cat Person 's male character may not…

https://www.bulwer-lytton.com/ What are you trying to say? This comment made me the most upset×angry I've ever been on HN. Feels like an abuse of language.

It's not abuse, it didn't even registered to me as something special, and I'm an ESL speaker. Some people, by dint of having read many books, have a rich vocabulary and use it without giving any thought to how well-read (or not) are their interlocutors.

Re: “Cat Person” and Me

#84

Post by denton-scratch »

erulabs wrote: post #75
DoreenMichele wrote: post #56

To me, the most disturbing part of this is the following section: I made plans to rent an apartment with some girls from my econ class the following year, but they told me they’d changed their minds when they found out about my older boyfriend. I'm a woman and I blog. I have made a stab at writing fiction, often loosely based on my life. People tend to assume it is 100 percent true . When I was getting divorced, if I…

> I am disturbed and concerned by the general trend that the world seems to think all heterosexual relationships are inherently abusive or something. We hear a great deal about the bad, the things gone wrong, the dark side and sometimes it seems like there are no good examples out there, no discourse on "This is what a good relationship look like." Well said. There seems to be some larger theme going on, not just abo…

> maybe even all relationships are the result of power dynamics.

Male here.

I think OP is referring to "romantic" relationships; I don't think it's true that they necessarily result from power dynamics. But I do think that all relationships, including friendships, work relations, and family relationships, have power dynamics swirling around them. I dispute that relationships are generally, or always, "the result" of power dynamics. I have a tendency to pedantry, so I may be in full agreement with OP.

That relationships involve power dynamics is unavoidable, I think. One of the ways we learn about the person we are relating with, is to push here, poke there, and observe the response. At the same time, we learn more about ourselves.

But attempts at domination are pathological, especially in romantic situations, and I think unusual.

I haven't read the short story, just the linked Slate article, and this one from the Guardian:

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2021/jul/09/the-cat-person...

Re: “Cat Person” and Me

#85

Post by GeoAtreides »

adjkant wrote: post #78
SmirthsDAC wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm going to strongly disagree with that, and not sure how you decided that was objectively true. My argument was to point out a lack of good reason in the first place to have concerns over the age gaps. I agreed life experience can be different, even significantly, I just don't see evidence or reasoning (in any conversation on this topic) it has anything to do with greater potential or likelihood of abuse or any d…

> greater potential or likelihood of abuse or any degree of taking advantage of people. It seems like this is the core of the disagreement. The factors here are complex, but here are some things I would point to as a starting point: - You often have large financial differences that can start completely accidental power imbalances in otherwise healthy relationships if not managed closely. This can happen regardless of…

> large financial differences

I'm wondering, are you against dating outside one's social class, too? should millionaires date waitresses? or billionaires date millionaires? Doctors dating house cleaners?

>Brain development

How about dating outside one's education, so to say. Is it ok for a college graduate to date a highschool dropout? How about a well-educated, cultured, person dating a trailer park educated person? How much of an IQ difference is ok? 120 IQ dating a 90 IQ?

Re: “Cat Person” and Me

#86

Post by denton-scratch »

whatshisface wrote: post #64
tptacek wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If what you said ran in the fiction section of the New Yorker , that would indeed be a very strong defense against a defamation claim.

Curiously, not as strong as one might think. "Judge Robert D. Sack of the 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, author of the defamation treatise, Sack on Defamation: Libel, Slander and Related Problems, describes when a libel suit might result from a work of fiction: “Where the defendant invents defamatory dialogue or other defamatory details in what purports to be nonfiction, uses actual people as fictional characters…

There's an AP Herbert book called "Uncommon Law", in which one of the (fictional) cases involves a crossword-setter (Mr. Haddock) who is sued for setting puzzles with defamatory clues.

For example, "Bibulous bishop". That could be any bishop, except that the space for the solution, and the other intersecting answers, narrow the field considerably, to the point that the solver is forced to conclude that Bishop XYZ is the solution.

If you follow the Assange case, then you might see a strong similarity with the idea of "jigsaw identification".

Re: “Cat Person” and Me

#87

Post by Lio »

normac2 wrote: post #81

The most obvious takeaway here is how she was wronged by Roupernian, but maybe a just-as-interesting takeaway is that the real Charles was a three-dimensional person with some good traits, and not just an avatar of all semi-neckbeardy creepy men. Of course, it's pretty clear the story wants to serve as some kind of stylized and boiled-down version of some of the disturbing stuff that women experience dating. But this…

I think we should be wary of anyone that tries to manipulate emotions against an "other" group.

It's popular because it triggers existing prejudices about your so called "semi-neckbeardy creepy men". Even that phrase links appearance to bad behaviour.

(I mean in general terms here and not specifically anything about your post, I should point out).

However it's pure fantasy. The original story takes two people's perfectly ordinary relationship and twists it into a series of misandrist and ageist stereotypes.

This is pretty normalised in current modern media.

Attacking the currently unpopular out-group always sells well because the audience actively wants to believe the worst about people they already don't like. Truth be damned.

Really though, we should see this for what it is. The original author of Cat Person was at one time romantically involved with this man. She wrote an unpleasant fictionalised story about him which is now clearly shown to be untrue.

Many authors, male and female, do this all the time. e.g. Ian Flemming did it all the time in his Bond books.

Her story is just a passive aggressive form of revenge for some imagined slight.

Re: “Cat Person” and Me

#88

Post by ReptileMan »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #56

To me, the most disturbing part of this is the following section: I made plans to rent an apartment with some girls from my econ class the following year, but they told me they’d changed their minds when they found out about my older boyfriend. I'm a woman and I blog. I have made a stab at writing fiction, often loosely based on my life. People tend to assume it is 100 percent true . When I was getting divorced, if I…

I think that this effect is localized in what can be described as "deep blue feminist college educated media women" bubble. That just happens to be uniquely vocal because of the media positions they hold.

In the real world it is more nuanced (and nobody really cares)

Re: “Cat Person” and Me

#89

Post by makomk »

tptacek wrote: post #31
Firebrand wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine a story about Charles the software developer, who lives in Chicago, being a horrible, predatory romantic partner. Not trying to imply that you are one of course, but that’s about as much detail she changed from the real life story—just the names. And now it was so successful that there’s going to be made about it starring Cousin Greg from HBO’s Succession. People love to gossip and will eventually put two and…

She didn't change "just the names". As the Slate article observes, she changes half the story . That's what people are mad about: that her work of fiction is mostly fictional.

The half she kept is the identifying details other than names of the actual, real-life people she based it on - so much so that their friends immediately recognised them in the story - and the half she changed is stuff internal to their relationship that those friends would have no way of identifying as false and that seemingly fits their existing sterotype-based assumptions better than the actual reality would've.

Re: “Cat Person” and Me

#90

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

tptacek wrote: post #31
Firebrand wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine a story about Charles the software developer, who lives in Chicago, being a horrible, predatory romantic partner. Not trying to imply that you are one of course, but that’s about as much detail she changed from the real life story—just the names. And now it was so successful that there’s going to be made about it starring Cousin Greg from HBO’s Succession. People love to gossip and will eventually put two and…

She didn't change "just the names". As the Slate article observes, she changes half the story . That's what people are mad about: that her work of fiction is mostly fictional.

"Based on a true story."

It's not fiction. It's taking the personal relationship of two people and editorialising it to turn it into something it wasn't - for personal gain and political status - while causing the people in it genuine pain and grief.

It's a form of appropriation. If it was mostly fictional it could have started from a different premise and used different characters.

The character space that authors can work in is unimaginably vast, and there was no need at all to use personal experiences to "borrow" detail when some imagined experiences would have done the job just as well.

In reality the the impact of the story comes from the people it's based on - not from the creative imagination of the author, who took their private lives and feelings and distorted them into a saleable feminist parable.

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