Programmers, teach non-geeks the true cost of interruptions (2014) • Hacker News Board

Re: Programmers, teach non-geeks the true cost of interruptions (2014)

#171

Post by j4yav » Sat, Jul 10, 2021, 6:59 AM UTC

hboon wrote: post #161

To those advocating writing (more notes) to help context switching, just a thought — do chess players keep notes during a running game? --- And I added this part later, just to frame the question in case it suggests that I think notes are useless here: I have been writing and keeping notes of my work for more than a decade, mostly writing them as I go.

It is forbidden in tournament play, but I absolutely keep notes for correspondence games that play over the course of multiple days (a chess sprint?) and LiChess even has notes as a built in feature.

Re: Programmers, teach non-geeks the true cost of interruptions (2014)

#172

Post by philipswood » Sat, Jul 10, 2021, 7:05 AM UTC

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #12

> Your non-techie peers just don’t get it, no matter how many times you try to make them understand. We really need to get past this smug idea that tech work is uniquely difficult in a way that no one else can understand. Any deep work suffers from interruptions, and programming isn't the only type of work that has significant mental context. This idea that programmers are uniquely vulnerable does no favors when tryi…

Responding to the first point: In a "normal" software context, developers are usually faced with other roles that usually don't have the same focus requirements.

PMs, scrum masters and sales or business development types don't usually have the same kind of focus requirements during day to day. Sure, they also need deep focus when drawing up a detailed budget or doing roadmap planning or whatnot, but usually their day requires less focus and a broader contextual awareness instead.

So, obviously physicists, plumbers, bookkeepers, surgeons, mathematicians, all manner of creatives, designers, engineers, chemists and evolutionary biologists also need not to be disturbed while working. But their workplace is often cognisant of the fact.

Programmers often complain because the default setup in which they work (some kind of open plan office) and the roles they often interact with don't get the basics of what's needed.

If I needed to work on site, I'd regard an seperate office as a significant perk.

Re: Programmers, teach non-geeks the true cost of interruptions (2014)

#173

Post by abnercoimbre » Sat, Jul 10, 2021, 7:18 AM UTC

ideamotor wrote: post #167

Interruptions are very challenging with any deep work that takes hours. This is true. What I am facing however, is a related issue. Perhaps because I have not been doing much programming lately, I find it increasingly difficult to actually get and be in the zone. When I go in, I go all in, and enter a kind of fugue state where the hours slip away. While for some this may sound advantageous, in the past, it has been a…

Are you saying getting into that "in the zone" state affected your mental health. Interesting. Any examples of the side effects? Is it hard to put into words?

Re: Programmers, teach non-geeks the true cost of interruptions (2014)

#174

Post by BeetleB » Sat, Jul 10, 2021, 7:25 AM UTC

uxp100 wrote: post #64

MattGaiser wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Any deep work suffers from interruptions, and programming isn't the only type of work that has significant mental context. This idea that programmers are uniquely vulnerable and no one else can understand doesn't help the situation. We seem to be the only profession that cares then. It is only developers who get why you Slack people you are sitting next to.

I guess I consider it part of my Job to be there and answer questions, assist other developers, etc. (Also please do not slack me when you're sitting right next to me, it's like, more disruptive and annoying than just talking to me. But mostly just use Email, please.)

> (Also please do not slack me when you're sitting right next to me, it's like, more disruptive and annoying than just talking to me. But mostly just use Email, please.)

I was about to say the same. Slack disruptions are often worse than in person interruptions. Email isn't.

Re: Programmers, teach non-geeks the true cost of interruptions (2014)

#175

Post by naavis » Sat, Jul 10, 2021, 7:44 AM UTC

wisty wrote: post #158

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #12

> Your non-techie peers just don’t get it, no matter how many times you try to make them understand. We really need to get past this smug idea that tech work is uniquely difficult in a way that no one else can understand. Any deep work suffers from interruptions, and programming isn't the only type of work that has significant mental context. This idea that programmers are uniquely vulnerable does no favors when tryi…

Disrespectful jerks are a problem in any workplace. Programmers complain about it online a lot, because programmers complain about everything online. Making a disrespectful jerk do some stupid Sudoku problem to teach them about interruptions isn't overcoming their lack of perspective, it's just letting them know that they were a disrespectful jerk (which they probably already kind of know, but they're used to it so i…

I don't know what kind of places you have worked in, but I have rarely bumped into disrespectful jerks as coworkers in my jobs. If you work with many jerks, maybe there is an opportunity to improve the recruitment process there.

Re: Programmers, teach non-geeks the true cost of interruptions (2014)

#176

Post by jimnotgym » Sat, Jul 10, 2021, 7:46 AM UTC

philipswood wrote: post #172

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #12

> Your non-techie peers just don’t get it, no matter how many times you try to make them understand. We really need to get past this smug idea that tech work is uniquely difficult in a way that no one else can understand. Any deep work suffers from interruptions, and programming isn't the only type of work that has significant mental context. This idea that programmers are uniquely vulnerable does no favors when tryi…

Responding to the first point: In a "normal" software context, developers are usually faced with other roles that usually don't have the same focus requirements. PMs, scrum masters and sales or business development types don't usually have the same kind of focus requirements during day to day. Sure, they also need deep focus when drawing up a detailed budget or doing roadmap planning or whatnot, but usually their day…

As an accountant and developer I can tell you that many accounting tasks are very similar to coding. I have spent years having to prepare management accounts in an open office and it is exhausting trying to maintain the focus required. And yes people interrupt you just like any other day because their roles require timely responses.

I have an office now and it helps a bit, but normally I hide at home and turn off email and put Teams into dnd for these tasks

Re: Programmers, teach non-geeks the true cost of interruptions (2014)

#177

Post by pedro2 » Sat, Jul 10, 2021, 7:54 AM UTC

abnercoimbre wrote: post #173

ideamotor wrote: post #167

Interruptions are very challenging with any deep work that takes hours. This is true. What I am facing however, is a related issue. Perhaps because I have not been doing much programming lately, I find it increasingly difficult to actually get and be in the zone. When I go in, I go all in, and enter a kind of fugue state where the hours slip away. While for some this may sound advantageous, in the past, it has been a…

Are you saying getting into that "in the zone" state affected your mental health. Interesting. Any examples of the side effects? Is it hard to put into words?

My guess would be he felt depleted emotionally and psychologically after spending too much time working.

Like when you need to spend some time in a dark silent room before filling like having fun or do house chores or do the cooking.

Re: Programmers, teach non-geeks the true cost of interruptions (2014)

#178

Post by sabbour » Sat, Jul 10, 2021, 8:01 AM UTC

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #12

> Your non-techie peers just don’t get it, no matter how many times you try to make them understand. We really need to get past this smug idea that tech work is uniquely difficult in a way that no one else can understand. Any deep work suffers from interruptions, and programming isn't the only type of work that has significant mental context. This idea that programmers are uniquely vulnerable does no favors when tryi…

Thank you, you sound like an adult.

Re: Programmers, teach non-geeks the true cost of interruptions (2014)

#179

Post by ngc248 » Sat, Jul 10, 2021, 8:26 AM UTC

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #12

> Your non-techie peers just don’t get it, no matter how many times you try to make them understand. We really need to get past this smug idea that tech work is uniquely difficult in a way that no one else can understand. Any deep work suffers from interruptions, and programming isn't the only type of work that has significant mental context. This idea that programmers are uniquely vulnerable does no favors when tryi…

There are more like different classes of work,

1. interruptible work 2. non-interruptible work

With interruptible work, you can get interrupted and get back to doing what you were doing with no/minimal disruption.

With non-interruptible work, it really disrupts you flow and may take some time to get back on track, disruptions just increase the Signal/Noise ratio.

And as the others saying, not only programming, but any kind of work can be disrupted by interruptions.

Re: Programmers, teach non-geeks the true cost of interruptions (2014)

#180

Post by ngc248 » Sat, Jul 10, 2021, 8:34 AM UTC

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #39

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #12

> Your non-techie peers just don’t get it, no matter how many times you try to make them understand. We really need to get past this smug idea that tech work is uniquely difficult in a way that no one else can understand. Any deep work suffers from interruptions, and programming isn't the only type of work that has significant mental context. This idea that programmers are uniquely vulnerable does no favors when tryi…

Sounds like a manager talking. The problem with programmers is, they haven't learn how to multitask! A few youtube videos and maybe a seminar and voila! They'll no longer be derailed by buzzword bingo and backseat driving. The act of saying "Sorry, ..." is enough to derail a deep debug session. Having a manager hover over your shoulder is enough. And if that's not believable, then clearly one of us hasn't been there,…

Exactly ...multi-tasking only works for shallow/low impact work. The expectation of multi-tasking for all forms of work is simply ludicrous.