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Ask HN: Where is the Django community?

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Re: Ask HN: Where is the Django community?

#101

Post by StavrosK »

aidos wrote: post #73
andybak wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd loved to have exchanged emails with you a year ago. The admin is amazingly malleable. Almost everything can be overridden and replaced. There's plenty of nice debugging/logging solutions (Werkzeug+Django Extensions being my favourite). Email switching between dev/producution is trivial (unless I'm misunderstanding you). There ARE some clunky parts to customizing auth - mainly around extending the User model - but…

Yup, just as I say, I'm sure there are solutions to these things if you know the answers. I did look long and hard at the time though. We were using a version of Django where the auth/user stuff had just changed and there were no good examples of how to extend the user model (frustratingly there were good examples for the previous version). Regarding the email stuff, my criteria for a framework is that I'd like it to…

About the email stuff, all you have to do is override the mail backend (recently added) or specify a fake server (non-recently added) in your dev settings.

Re: Ask HN: Where is the Django community?

#102

Post by chopsueyar »

araneae wrote: post #100

I went through this "ror vs. django" thing a few months ago, and ended up picking up Django. I got the Django book and liked it and I had no problems with my actual project itself in terms of having enough "community." However, now I'm in the "figuring out how to deploy it" stage and it's been a real pain. My free webhost supports RoR and python, but doesn't have Django installed, I don't want to spend the money on a…

I feel with Django, only 30% is learning Django "coding" and the other 70% is the deployment.

Everybody uses a different method.

Re: Ask HN: Where is the Django community?

#103

Post by mnutt »

ladyrassilon wrote: post #35
maxklein wrote: post #6

Let me tell you the truth, though this will not be popular: Django is not a good framework. It's clumsy, inflexible and restrictive. The community is pretty much dead. If you want to work in ruby, go for ror. If you want to work in python, go for a micro framework like Bottle. I made the mistake of investing a lot of my time in Django. It was not worth it in the end. All my Django projects ended up being a big mess,…

As someone who's been using Django since the magic removal branch, its documentation is top notch, not to mention the lack of magic makes it very usable, supportable, and build-able on. I can say definitely what's going on from the top layer to the bottom layer without any black box behaviour. Rails is full of sloppy coding, lots of magic, coders who think that return is an keyword, and bad practices. I have no probl…

I had to google 'django magic removal branch' just because it sounded so cool:

https://code.djangoproject.com/wiki/RemovingTheMagic

I think your experience with Rails (and the community) may be a little out of date. Check out wycats' changes in Rails 3.0 to see where most of the cleanup happened. There's a lot less magic than there used to be.

As far as authentication and admin sections, I guess it just depends on your preferences for which pieces should be included in a framework and which users should have a choice over. Authentication is often app-specific enough that it's hard to drop in different solutions and have them act equivalently.

Re: Ask HN: Where is the Django community?

#104

Post by ryanbigg »

tommyg wrote: post #74

Rails 3.0 was released almost 1 year ago on August 29th, 2010 Django 1.3 was released March 23rd, 2011, about 4 months ago.

You are contrasting the versions incorrectly. Rails 3.0 may have been released then but the latest version of it is Rails 3.0.9, which was released < 1 month ago.

Re: Ask HN: Where is the Django community?

#105

Post by mnutt »

espeed wrote: post #97
StavrosK wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure that, once you populate a class instance with your data, the rest of Django is usable with very few changes. It's pretty loosely coupled, generally.

Yeah, but most of the libraries that make up Django (and Rails), such as auth, are based around the ORM so if you don't use the ORM, you have a framework mismatch.

I don't know about Django but in Rails ActiveModel works pretty well to bridge the gap and let you use any Rails auth system on Mongo, etc.

Re: Ask HN: Where is the Django community?

#106

Post by espeed »

halayli wrote: post #86
tmhedberg wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Care to qualify this highly general and rather hyperbolic statement? Which specific aspects of "micro" frameworks do you find to be "evil"?

micro frameworks provide incomplete feature set. You tend to reinvent the wheel many times. I see no advantage in using them when I can have something more complete and feature rich.

Because as your app grows and you need more custom behavior, you find that you start stripping out the full-stack framework features and you end up with using it like a micro framework, which it wasn't designed to be so you have now have a framework mismatch.

Re: Ask HN: Where is the Django community?

#107

Post by espeed »

mdda wrote: post #94
halayli wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

web micro frameworks are evil although they don't look like that in the beginning, I advice to avoid them by all means. IMO, even though pylons 1.0 is now frozen, it is still one of the most flexible frameworks out there.

Has anyone else moved over to Pyramid (next iteration for Pylons - particularly with the Akhet suite : mako, beaker, SQLalchemy)? I'm surprised it isn't mentioned on HN more.

I liked Pylons and I wanted to like Pyramid but couldn't get into it. Then I discovered Flask (http://flask.pocoo.org) and moved on to using it with Bulbflow (http://bulbflow.com).

Re: Ask HN: Where is the Django community?

#108

Post by robbles »

malero wrote: post #76
maxklein wrote: post #6

Let me tell you the truth, though this will not be popular: Django is not a good framework. It's clumsy, inflexible and restrictive. The community is pretty much dead. If you want to work in ruby, go for ror. If you want to work in python, go for a micro framework like Bottle. I made the mistake of investing a lot of my time in Django. It was not worth it in the end. All my Django projects ended up being a big mess,…

I think RoR and Django are both great frameworks. If you think that Django is too restrictive or inflexible, you are relying too much on the framework and not on your own abilities as a programmer. Django gets you up and running quickly, Python is where the real magic happens.

I can't believe I've read this far into an epic flamewar already, but thank you for making the one comment I can get behind. My experience with most development teams is that they have their own custom version of whichever framework(s) they use with as much of the warts removed as possible, in their own style. There's just no way you're going to get around this part, no matter what framework you use.

Re: Ask HN: Where is the Django community?

#109

Post by petercooper »

ladyrassilon wrote: post #35
maxklein wrote: post #6

Let me tell you the truth, though this will not be popular: Django is not a good framework. It's clumsy, inflexible and restrictive. The community is pretty much dead. If you want to work in ruby, go for ror. If you want to work in python, go for a micro framework like Bottle. I made the mistake of investing a lot of my time in Django. It was not worth it in the end. All my Django projects ended up being a big mess,…

As someone who's been using Django since the magic removal branch, its documentation is top notch, not to mention the lack of magic makes it very usable, supportable, and build-able on. I can say definitely what's going on from the top layer to the bottom layer without any black box behaviour. Rails is full of sloppy coding, lots of magic, coders who think that return is an keyword, and bad practices. I have no probl…

the performance is STILL lagging behind Python

It's hard to benchmark these things with accuracy and impartiality, but there's not a significant gap between them anymore. For example (see JRuby here):

http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u32/which-programming-lang...

I just ran an identical-technique-almost-identical-code recursive fibonacci benchmark against Python 2.6.1, Ruby 1.9.2, and JRuby 1.6.1 and got times of 17.4s, 7s, and 3.2s respectively. (Undoubtedly you could find benchmarks where Python wins, but this is an interesting test of a common algorithm nonetheless.)

Perhaps in real world tests there are places where performance can be made up, but at its core, Python isn't showing much improvement over Ruby nowadays until you start to use things like PyPy (which is, I admit, totally awesome).

Re: Ask HN: Where is the Django community?

#110

Post by robbles »

araneae wrote: post #100

I went through this "ror vs. django" thing a few months ago, and ended up picking up Django. I got the Django book and liked it and I had no problems with my actual project itself in terms of having enough "community." However, now I'm in the "figuring out how to deploy it" stage and it's been a real pain. My free webhost supports RoR and python, but doesn't have Django installed, I don't want to spend the money on a…

I think you'll find that any "free webhost" is going to give you a lot of trouble if you want to deploy a project built on a modern web framework.

Rule of thumb: if it doesn't have SSH access, and it's not a Platform-as-a-Service like Heroku or Gondor, you're probably not going to have much luck deploying anything except PHP or static HTML.

Check out webfaction.com, it's great for beginners and does most of the deployment for you.

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