Are animals more conscious than we are? • Hacker News Board

Re: Are animals more conscious than we are?

#41

Post by orange8 » Sat, Jul 10, 2021, 4:31 AM UTC

amonavis wrote: post #31

orange8 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pain is strictly a physical sensation. It may however be triggered by thoughts or emotions. The three are rarely ever experienced in isolation.

> Pain is strictly a physical sensation. Hard to tell that to those with lost limbs who suffer from ghost pain.

Do not be fooled by the term "ghost". The pain is still real, and experts now agree it is coming from both the brain and spinal cord [1]. Just like optical illusions, the mind can play many tricks on us. Just because the pain feels like it is coming from a non-existent limb does not mean that that is where it is actually coming from.

1. https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/phantom-pain/...

Re: Are animals more conscious than we are?

#42

Post by shannifin » Sat, Jul 10, 2021, 4:38 AM UTC

vlovich123 wrote: post #38

shannifin wrote: post #32

> Seen as biological robots, their cognition is essentially in service to this, and so must necessarily be algorithmic, and limited. All to say they are generally assumed to have lesser forms of consciousness. This seems to define consciousness as measurable by algorithmic determinism and limitation, which seems a complete non-sequitur. Seeing something as a biological robot need not necessarily imply anything at all…

> for I see no evidence that any earthly creatures other than humans can actually reflect on their own feelings and therefore create an emotional feedback loop that serves to intensify emotions. Haven’t we observed complex human-like emotions for elephants, dolphins, and various other primates (eg grieving rituals for lost family members)? Heck even dogs clearly show signs of depression and happiness although whether…

> Haven’t we observed complex human-like emotions for elephants, dolphins, and various other primates (eg grieving rituals for lost family members)?

I think we observe complex behavior that we associate with our own emotional experiences (which seem appropriate given our genetic / biological / physiological similarities), I just doubt they're necessarily as intense as we experience them given our ability to reflect on them. And if you can't reflect on an emotion, can you even necessarily be conscious of it at all? It seems more likely to me that animals experience no conscious awareness of their own emotions at all, however complex they may be.

Re: Are animals more conscious than we are?

#43

Post by 93po » Sat, Jul 10, 2021, 4:43 AM UTC

Zababa wrote: post #33

krasin wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just an observation: by this metric, bison meat is approximately 200 times more ethical than chicken meat.

Some people are actually starting to think about that, especially in the context of insect "meat". For example, a cow makes ~250kg of meat, a cricket weight ~0.5g. If you believe all life to be equal, eating a cow is 500 000 times better than eating the equivalent in crickets. If you believe that insect are worth 10 000 times less than cows (arbitrary number), that's still 50 times worse. I think it's important that…

I'm very much a meat eater and I absolutely think about this. I think cows are a lot more intelligent than chickens but I feel less bad eating beef because I think I'd be fine killing a single cow every few years but I'd probably struggle to kill a chicken every single day

Re: Are animals more conscious than we are?

#44

Post by TrispusAttucks » Sat, Jul 10, 2021, 4:45 AM UTC

Quantification of consciousness is such a prickly question.

Some ants can lift 10 to 50 times their own weight.

Are they stronger than a human?

The question makes no sense.

Is a human more conscious than an electron?

Perhaps also makes no sense.

Re: Are animals more conscious than we are?

#45

Post by EamonnMR » Sat, Jul 10, 2021, 4:49 AM UTC

shannifin wrote: post #42

vlovich123 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> for I see no evidence that any earthly creatures other than humans can actually reflect on their own feelings and therefore create an emotional feedback loop that serves to intensify emotions. Haven’t we observed complex human-like emotions for elephants, dolphins, and various other primates (eg grieving rituals for lost family members)? Heck even dogs clearly show signs of depression and happiness although whether…

> Haven’t we observed complex human-like emotions for elephants, dolphins, and various other primates (eg grieving rituals for lost family members)? I think we observe complex behavior that we associate with our own emotional experiences (which seem appropriate given our genetic / biological / physiological similarities), I just doubt they're necessarily as intense as we experience them given our ability to reflect o…

Could the fear I feel when I see an oncoming bus really be so different than the fear a squirrel feels when I make a sudden move towards it?

Re: Are animals more conscious than we are?

#46

Post by srean » Sat, Jul 10, 2021, 5:32 AM UTC

shannifin wrote: post #42

vlovich123 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> for I see no evidence that any earthly creatures other than humans can actually reflect on their own feelings and therefore create an emotional feedback loop that serves to intensify emotions. Haven’t we observed complex human-like emotions for elephants, dolphins, and various other primates (eg grieving rituals for lost family members)? Heck even dogs clearly show signs of depression and happiness although whether…

> Haven’t we observed complex human-like emotions for elephants, dolphins, and various other primates (eg grieving rituals for lost family members)? I think we observe complex behavior that we associate with our own emotional experiences (which seem appropriate given our genetic / biological / physiological similarities), I just doubt they're necessarily as intense as we experience them given our ability to reflect o…

I think we observe complex behavior in you personally that we associate with our own ... I just doubt they are necessarily as intense as we experience.

Lets start using the same standards of 'proof'

If Helen Keller were never to learn to communicate with us through language that we understand are we to have believed that she has no consciousness -- just external manifestation that "complex behavior that we associate with our own emotional experience ..."

Re: Are animals more conscious than we are?

#47

Post by shannifin » Sat, Jul 10, 2021, 6:04 AM UTC

EamonnMR wrote: post #45

shannifin wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Haven’t we observed complex human-like emotions for elephants, dolphins, and various other primates (eg grieving rituals for lost family members)? I think we observe complex behavior that we associate with our own emotional experiences (which seem appropriate given our genetic / biological / physiological similarities), I just doubt they're necessarily as intense as we experience them given our ability to reflect o…

Could the fear I feel when I see an oncoming bus really be so different than the fear a squirrel feels when I make a sudden move towards it?

Of course it could. What is the difference between the fear felt from an oncoming bus vs flinching at someone popping out and saying "boo"? It's our ability to think about the meaningfulness of the stimulus. We know the bus could kill us (or at least deliver tremendous pain), whereas the scare from a prank is just a sort of autoresponse from our sympathetic nervous system; we jump before we're even conscious as to why our body is reacting. (We may even enjoy the autoresponse and purposefully seek out jump scares.)

So, for a squirrel, perhaps it's like our unconscious sympathetic nervous system autoresponse, but all the time.

Re: Are animals more conscious than we are?

#48

Post by shannifin » Sat, Jul 10, 2021, 6:29 AM UTC

srean wrote: post #46

shannifin wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Haven’t we observed complex human-like emotions for elephants, dolphins, and various other primates (eg grieving rituals for lost family members)? I think we observe complex behavior that we associate with our own emotional experiences (which seem appropriate given our genetic / biological / physiological similarities), I just doubt they're necessarily as intense as we experience them given our ability to reflect o…

I think we observe complex behavior in you personally that we associate with our own ... I just doubt they are necessarily as intense as we experience. Lets start using the same standards of 'proof' If Helen Keller were never to learn to communicate with us through language that we understand are we to have believed that she has no consciousness -- just external manifestation that "complex behavior that we associate…

> If Helen Keller were never to learn to communicate with us through language that we understand are we to have believed that she has no consciousness.

I was only referring to emotions and their intensity in species that exhibit no ability to self-reflect, not consciousness in general.

Re: Are animals more conscious than we are?

#49

Post by srean » Sat, Jul 10, 2021, 6:43 AM UTC

shannifin wrote: post #48

srean wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we observe complex behavior in you personally that we associate with our own ... I just doubt they are necessarily as intense as we experience. Lets start using the same standards of 'proof' If Helen Keller were never to learn to communicate with us through language that we understand are we to have believed that she has no consciousness -- just external manifestation that "complex behavior that we associate…

> If Helen Keller were never to learn to communicate with us through language that we understand are we to have believed that she has no consciousness. I was only referring to emotions and their intensity in species that exhibit no ability to self-reflect, not consciousness in general.

I am doing the same. I am just pointing out that we use different standards of 'proof'.

The only way I can assign an internal monologue of human emotions to you is (i) pattern match your external behavior with my own behavior in an emotional state (ii) take you on your word when you describe that your feelings, (iii) assume that all humans are roughly going to be the same.

With animals (ii) is not an option. It would not have been an option for Helen Keller too before a common language was established. Regarding (iii) it depends on where we draw the line where similarity ends, one can argue that there is a lot of shared physiology among say dolphins, us, elephants, primates dogs …

So believing that animals do not have internal monologue of emotions when they clearly show similar external manifestation is sourced more from human exceptionalism and having double standards for proofs.

We don't have the technology yet to listen into the internal monologues of anybody other than our own. All we have is evidence of external behavior and some physiological telemetry. What we conclude from these stems from what we want to believe. We have been wrong about our exceptionalism many times in history, so its not a very reliable guide.

By the way when I use the word 'you' its to draw attention to epistemological problem in the line of argument. Not that I disbelieve that you do have emotions.

Re: Are animals more conscious than we are?

#50

Post by srean » Sat, Jul 10, 2021, 6:50 AM UTC

osobo wrote: post #40

shannifin wrote: post #32

> Seen as biological robots, their cognition is essentially in service to this, and so must necessarily be algorithmic, and limited. All to say they are generally assumed to have lesser forms of consciousness. This seems to define consciousness as measurable by algorithmic determinism and limitation, which seems a complete non-sequitur. Seeing something as a biological robot need not necessarily imply anything at all…

Interpreting animal communication requires an amount of empathy that not all people are capable of. And without spoken feedback or confirmation, it's easy to read too much into animal behavior. But animals can definitely sulk, which for me is an example of an emotional feedback loop.

and have nightmares.