Programmers, teach non-geeks the true cost of interruptions (2014) • Hacker News Board

Re: Programmers, teach non-geeks the true cost of interruptions (2014)

#101

Post by aroundtown » Fri, Jul 09, 2021, 9:10 PM UTC

You know what helps:

1. Stop being passive aggressive about being interrupted.

2. Take notes.

Dealing with [1]: it is ok, to interrupt some one who starts talking to you, tell them "Hang on", "Just a minute", "Come back in an hour". You have to put your foot down if you are working, even with bosses.

Note taking[2]: early in my career I kept too much information in my head, including debugging. Life is so much better with notes. Nowadays, I work problems out on the paper and not in my head. It's harder to start doing, but once you start you have a paper trail of where you have been and where you are going. Sometimes, you do need to drop everything and go be part of the action. When that happens, notes will get you back where you were quickly.

Re: Programmers, teach non-geeks the true cost of interruptions (2014)

#102

Post by SamBam » Fri, Jul 09, 2021, 9:11 PM UTC

> Now, tell him to add those numbers in his head. He can look at the screen and talk/whisper/mutter to himself, but he can’t write anything down and he can’t type anything.

"Why can't I write anything down?"

"Because when I'm seven to ten levels deep in a stack of issues, I never write anything down, I need to keep it all in my head."

"But why?"

"Well... I have a whole mental model constructed. I couldn't possibly write it all down."

"But it seriously wouldn't help you to keep some notes while you work? And perhaps add to the skimpy comments in the codebase while you're doing it?"

"I seriously don't see how that would help."

"You literally just said you've written down the code '8xZ204330Kd' and now you have no idea what it was for. Did you imagine you'd be guaranteed to remember it between writing it down and finally solving the bug? Why didn't you at least write some context about what that string was?"

Seriously, just like most kids somewhere between the ages of four and ten goes from "I know I will remember this!" to "I should write this down so I don't forget," programmers could stand to recognize that sometimes taking some notes can help clear their brain when they're too many levels deep in a stack.

Re: Programmers, teach non-geeks the true cost of interruptions (2014)

#103

Post by lordnacho » Fri, Jul 09, 2021, 9:11 PM UTC

lelandbatey wrote: post #82

lordnacho wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Intuitivists. They might take their time to refine their thoughts but they aren't programmers. Type one thing wrong and your novel is still a novel.

Describing a lawyer as an "intuitivist" is pretty hilarious. Their work, especially surrounding contract work, can be extremely programming like, with very particular language, highly technical and specific terms/wording, and there absolutely are many cases where typing one thing wrong (such as a misplaced comma) can (and has[1]) completely change the meaning of crucial sections of contracts. [1] - https://www.bbc.co…

The list was different earlier.

Obviously I can't know about what every profession does, not even my own. But I've interacted with enough professionals of various sorts to say I don't think the intricacy is the same.

Ymmv

Re: Programmers, teach non-geeks the true cost of interruptions (2014)

#104

Post by a1369209993 » Fri, Jul 09, 2021, 9:12 PM UTC

juliansimioni wrote: post #48

leephillips wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the issue is that, in a typical workplace that employs some programmers, they are in fact the only ones who will be doing deep work that requires sustained focus. The typical office does not contain, in addition to programmers, poets, painters, and mathematicians. If it did, those people would understand. Instead, aside from the programmers, you have mostly salesdroids and managers, who have absolutely no con…

>because they have never done any real work A good sales person can make the business money (you know, the thing that keeps them from disappearing) without _any_ product yet existing at all. Programmers who build something rarely bring in money by its mere existence. Be careful who you insult because its unlikely you could do what they do, and it's not guaranteed that you'd keep your job ahead of them if it comes to…

> A good sales person can make the business money

A good 419 scammer can make the business money without any product ever existing at any point in time - that doesn't mean they're doing anything useful.

Re: Programmers, teach non-geeks the true cost of interruptions (2014)

#105

Post by 1ris » Fri, Jul 09, 2021, 9:14 PM UTC

nathias wrote: post #71

I really don't get this exaggeration about interruptions ...

Me neither. I actually like to have some random human-to-human interaction from time to time. If I don't, I will start to feel lonely. Like actually sad.

Re: Programmers, teach non-geeks the true cost of interruptions (2014)

#106

Post by leephillips » Fri, Jul 09, 2021, 9:16 PM UTC

a1369209993 wrote: post #99

testudovictoria wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Instead, aside from the programmers, you have mostly salesdroids and managers, who have absolutely no concept, because they have never done any real work. Wow. This is exactly what the top comment was talking about with the opening sentence. These people may not need deep concentration to be successful, but that doesn't mean they don't do real work.

> These people may not need deep concentration to be successful, but that doesn't mean they don't do real work. They didn't claim that. They claimed that the fact that these people don't do real work means that they don't need deep concentration to be successful. A implies B, not B implies A. (For example, off the top of my head, plumbers (unlike salesdroids and managers) clearly do real work, but very little if any…

Thank you.

Re: Programmers, teach non-geeks the true cost of interruptions (2014)

#107

Post by lordnacho » Fri, Jul 09, 2021, 9:16 PM UTC

jolmg wrote: post #90

lordnacho wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Intuitivists. They might take their time to refine their thoughts but they aren't programmers. Type one thing wrong and your novel is still a novel.

As if programming can't involve intuition. There isn't one way to do things nor do we operate with strictly defined rules to follow. We need a fair amount of intuition from experience to make the decisions that will be more beneficial for the future development of our projects.

The point is others tend to rely more on intuitive structures that are everyday. Crystallised intuition about a specific domain doesn't count because of course everyone who is a specialist is going to have their own local knowledge. Calling it domain intuition might make more sense.

Re: Programmers, teach non-geeks the true cost of interruptions (2014)

#108

Post by aynsof » Fri, Jul 09, 2021, 9:21 PM UTC

aroundtown wrote: post #101

You know what helps: 1. Stop being passive aggressive about being interrupted. 2. Take notes. Dealing with [1]: it is ok, to interrupt some one who starts talking to you, tell them "Hang on", "Just a minute", "Come back in an hour". You have to put your foot down if you are working, even with bosses. Note taking[2]: early in my career I kept too much information in my head, including debugging. Life is so much better…

I agree on note taking.

On putting your foot down - some bosses react really badly to that. I choose not to work for bosses like that anymore, but I'm in a position where I can do that. Not everyone is, though.

Re: Programmers, teach non-geeks the true cost of interruptions (2014)

#109

Post by isbvhodnvemrwvn » Fri, Jul 09, 2021, 9:22 PM UTC

MattGaiser wrote: post #92

isbvhodnvemrwvn wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Every model the sales guy or manager uses has very few knobs to twist and are mostly intuitive models for which everyone has a template and practices use of every day: emotions, status, hierarchy, urgency, etc Have you ever worked in sales or as a manager?

Looking at their schedules for the ones on my team, you could not break up software development like they do with that they do. My manager's day is filled with stuff in 15 minute to 1.5 hour increments.

And yet even with these 15 minutes you have to immediately mentally reconstruct the context of this meeting and then actively listen to what the other person says, figure out if they actually mean what they ask (quite commonly the issue is different), and then immediately jump into another meeting, and you can't just forget what happened during that 15 minutes. You have to carry this mental model of conversation and context (typically multiple ones) all the day with you. Then you have to actively prioritize across the various contexts and deliver value for all of them, while being in the meetings for the better part of the day.

It's a different side of the same coin.

Re: Programmers, teach non-geeks the true cost of interruptions (2014)

#110

Post by avmich » Fri, Jul 09, 2021, 9:23 PM UTC

aroundtown wrote: post #101

You know what helps: 1. Stop being passive aggressive about being interrupted. 2. Take notes. Dealing with [1]: it is ok, to interrupt some one who starts talking to you, tell them "Hang on", "Just a minute", "Come back in an hour". You have to put your foot down if you are working, even with bosses. Note taking[2]: early in my career I kept too much information in my head, including debugging. Life is so much better…

Nah, you don't understand. Even saying "get lost, I'm thinking" requires focus of Feynman, so by that time many already suffered. Keeping notes - good luck with that, if you thinking about something sufficiently vague, as in like 90+% cases happens to many - programmers. So stopping being passive aggressive is tantamount to cleverly preventing those distractions from happening in the first place - see e.g. Graham's piece with different time of work advice. And in those rare cases when you do need to drop everything - well, that'd better happen at most once a year, or you'll lose more than a few hours each time.