Protect student privacy: ban eproctoring • Hacker News Board

Re: Protect student privacy: ban eproctoring

#181

Post by fouc » Fri, Jul 09, 2021, 2:24 PM UTC

hobofan wrote: post #174

gambiting wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, I think the problem is elsewhere. Where I'm from(Poland) cheating is rampant and universities have absolutely no trouble kicking people out over it. Got caught cheating? Good bye, apply again next year. It doesn't lead to litigation or messy PR. Maybe it's because all universities are free to attend so no one can argue that they paid for something they aren't getting - all they are losing is their own time.

> Good bye, apply again next year. Apply again next year? In Germany, a university expulsion usually comes with a lifetime ban on studying the same subject again.

in Canada you'd likely be unable to get into ANY university with a note about plagiarism in your records.

Re: Protect student privacy: ban eproctoring

#182

Post by poplarstand » Fri, Jul 09, 2021, 2:27 PM UTC

alanfranz wrote: post #56

Recent gatech OMSCS graduate here. I fail to recognize any real issue with proctoring. I have used proctortrack and honorlock. * proctoring software can be installed before an exam and uninstalled afterwards. It doesn’t need to stay on your pc/browser, and its activation is very obvious. I have no info about permanent security issues caused by such software. * what proctoring does is mostly recording video and audio…

Current (almost finished) OMSA student here.

I agree that the tools themselves aren't terrible, but I do believe they're an example of "doing the wrong thing faster". My claim would be that all time-limited exams are bad news.

1. The strictness and quality of exams varies significantly by instructor (as you mentioned in your post)

2. Exams aren't representative of any real-world analogue (how often does your boss lock you in a room and tell you to solve the Lagrangian by hand, alone, under a time limit)

3. They don't actually stop determined cheaters (anyone with the foresight to put up notesheets in their bathroom)

In short, proctored exams do not effectively assess student proficiency in a subject, and do not effectively prevent cheating. Making proctoring more scalable means propogating a bad practice at ever-greater rates.

What I would suggest instead, and what many classes in OMSA have already done, is to leverage project-based assessments.

* Demonstrates learning by actually using the material, instead of hollow repeat-backs

* Encourages further learning since practice entails dealing with real-world complications

* Helps students develop a portfolio so they have more to show at graduation than transcripts

There are many other options though if that particular solution doesn't tickle your fancy.

Re: Protect student privacy: ban eproctoring

#183

Post by cowpig » Fri, Jul 09, 2021, 2:28 PM UTC

TravisHusky wrote: post #175

Just to throw it out there, I graduated during the pandemic, and it was so frustrating not only the amount of cheating that occurred, which meant that if you didn't cheat you fell behind; but also how professors responded. I had a few professors who made exams ridiculously hard with strict time limits, just because they expected people to cheat. So the exams were designed in a way they cheating was the only way to ge…

I had an experience like this in Numerical Methods in university years ago.

The exams were incredibly difficult for bad reasons: you had to calculate many iterations of an algorithm by hand. You also had to memorize a bunch of algorithms (rather than understanding how they worked or how to modify them to solve different problems).

The professor also had a "can't do anything about it" attitude, and so the entire class was blatantly cheating as a result, and I got the worst grade of my academic career.

It sort of broke the camel's back for me; I consider our current approach to academics to be fundamentally broken.

It's harder to design exams where people cannot cheat, but it's certainly possible. Randomize the orders of questions on the test. Have multiple versions the same question (e.g. in a math exam, change a 2 to a 4, or a sin to a cos). Now you have unique exams for each student.

Most importantly, design questions that require critical thinking, and allow everyone to use their computers/books/notes/whatever. That's far more representative of real life anyway.

These simple changes would both make cheating very difficult, and result in better learning: memorizing a bunch of crap the day before an exam will have basically no impact in my life. Learning how to reason critically about the subject matter will give me lasting benefits, even if that subject never comes up again.

This ProctorU stuff is just quadrupling down on a fundamentally broken approach and making it much worse.

Re: Protect student privacy: ban eproctoring

#184

Post by mikepurvis » Fri, Jul 09, 2021, 2:31 PM UTC

tppiotrowski wrote: post #179

TravisHusky wrote: post #175

Just to throw it out there, I graduated during the pandemic, and it was so frustrating not only the amount of cheating that occurred, which meant that if you didn't cheat you fell behind; but also how professors responded. I had a few professors who made exams ridiculously hard with strict time limits, just because they expected people to cheat. So the exams were designed in a way they cheating was the only way to ge…

Does anyone in academia know if tests are designed on a curve? You can give a test that everyone gets 100% on (assuming they show up) and you can give a test that everyone fails. Is part of creating a test thinking about how many students in your class are capable of scoring A’s, etc or is it just a side effect

I had a highschool calculus teacher who was very explicit about designing their tests on an A/B/C system.

The idea was that the A section was the basic plug-n-chug versions of the problem that everyone should be able to get if you were even half paying attention in class; the B section is stuff that requires a bit more reasoning and analysis, and may have a pitfall or two, but they'll be things that were at least mentioned; and the C section is effectively extra credit— a problem where you needed to have a deeper understanding in order to figure out something novel about it, or like you needed to re-derive something from first principles in a way that was slightly different from what was shown in class, that kind of thing.

And the sections weren't equally weighted; I think it was usually like 50/30/20, or even 60/30/10.

Some people hated this, but I really liked how explicit it was. There was no mystery meat— the whole evaluation scheme was very open about its design and intent.

Re: Protect student privacy: ban eproctoring

#185

Post by denimnerd42 » Fri, Jul 09, 2021, 2:32 PM UTC

tppiotrowski wrote: post #179

TravisHusky wrote: post #175

Just to throw it out there, I graduated during the pandemic, and it was so frustrating not only the amount of cheating that occurred, which meant that if you didn't cheat you fell behind; but also how professors responded. I had a few professors who made exams ridiculously hard with strict time limits, just because they expected people to cheat. So the exams were designed in a way they cheating was the only way to ge…

Does anyone in academia know if tests are designed on a curve? You can give a test that everyone gets 100% on (assuming they show up) and you can give a test that everyone fails. Is part of creating a test thinking about how many students in your class are capable of scoring A’s, etc or is it just a side effect

From my experience... it varies widely. The university will have a standard, the department will, the professor will.

I had experience taking undergraduate courses at 4 institutions in the USA and of course many departments.

I had some professors that expected the grades to fall like grade school did with 90-100 % being a high percentage. Others gave 4-6 difficult multi part problems and graded on a transparent curve. Others gave difficult problems and were not transparent about the grading scheme.

Re: Protect student privacy: ban eproctoring

#186

Post by corty » Fri, Jul 09, 2021, 2:33 PM UTC

tppiotrowski wrote: post #179

TravisHusky wrote: post #175

Just to throw it out there, I graduated during the pandemic, and it was so frustrating not only the amount of cheating that occurred, which meant that if you didn't cheat you fell behind; but also how professors responded. I had a few professors who made exams ridiculously hard with strict time limits, just because they expected people to cheat. So the exams were designed in a way they cheating was the only way to ge…

Does anyone in academia know if tests are designed on a curve? You can give a test that everyone gets 100% on (assuming they show up) and you can give a test that everyone fails. Is part of creating a test thinking about how many students in your class are capable of scoring A’s, etc or is it just a side effect

Depends on country, university and professor. In Germany, the general rule is that grading on a curve isn't allowed or at least strongly discouraged. There was a short while when such a system was acceptable, called ECTS grades (not to be confused with ECTS credits), but that was done away with in a year or so. Currently, grades are based on the lecture contents and the expectation of the lecturer for the progress a student should make. Lecturers are relatively free to do whatever they please within those bounds. If a test ends in everybody failing, tough luck, maybe next time. If that unfortunate event does repeat too often, the dean might get involved, but can't do a lot more than talk to the lecturer.

Re: Protect student privacy: ban eproctoring

#187

Post by jdmichal » Fri, Jul 09, 2021, 2:34 PM UTC

cowpig wrote: post #183

TravisHusky wrote: post #175

Just to throw it out there, I graduated during the pandemic, and it was so frustrating not only the amount of cheating that occurred, which meant that if you didn't cheat you fell behind; but also how professors responded. I had a few professors who made exams ridiculously hard with strict time limits, just because they expected people to cheat. So the exams were designed in a way they cheating was the only way to ge…

I had an experience like this in Numerical Methods in university years ago. The exams were incredibly difficult for bad reasons: you had to calculate many iterations of an algorithm by hand. You also had to memorize a bunch of algorithms (rather than understanding how they worked or how to modify them to solve different problems). The professor also had a "can't do anything about it" attitude, and so the entire class…

My AP calculus teacher allowed us to use calculators on our tests. Why? Because he knew exactly how to design questions such that the calculator would switch from exact to approximation mode. So you could enter any problem on the test into the calculator, and all it would spit out is a useless answer with as many decimal places as it could handle. Of course the calculator worked fine on every homework question. But you better have still learned the material if you wanted to make it through the test.

Re: Protect student privacy: ban eproctoring

#188

Post by conductr » Fri, Jul 09, 2021, 2:34 PM UTC

moron4hire wrote: post #114

nicbou wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you, but at the same time, it diminishes the value of a degree, because it no longer certifies that meet certain requirements.

They already don't certify competence.

Which is why employers see undergrad has a filter and not adding value. They either don’t hire or even interview without experience or they look to your internships and accomplishments as a more significant qualification

Re: Protect student privacy: ban eproctoring

#189

Post by ModernMech » Fri, Jul 09, 2021, 2:37 PM UTC

TravisHusky wrote: post #175

Just to throw it out there, I graduated during the pandemic, and it was so frustrating not only the amount of cheating that occurred, which meant that if you didn't cheat you fell behind; but also how professors responded. I had a few professors who made exams ridiculously hard with strict time limits, just because they expected people to cheat. So the exams were designed in a way they cheating was the only way to ge…

> I had a few professors who made exams ridiculously hard with strict time limits, just because they expected people to cheat. So the exams were designed in a way they cheating was the only way to get through it, which just encouraged more people to cheat.

That’s such a strange response to that expectation. For the class I teach, I made my exams open book, open notes, open internet and gave them a extended time to work on the exam. If they’re gonna cheat, they’re gonna cheat. Don’t fight the tide. But the questions I asked where analysis/synthesis questions that couldn’t simply be looked up, and student performance was on a bell curve with a 80 average (in line with previous years). I think a lot of professors need to embrace the situation and adapt rather than forcing a police state on students during exam times.

Re: Protect student privacy: ban eproctoring

#190

Post by zo1 » Fri, Jul 09, 2021, 2:38 PM UTC

unishark wrote: post #158

ttonelli wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe making questions that you have to think about instead of just looking up the answer would help?

You need to give a range of questions from challenging like that to easy regurgitation to discern their level of understanding and be able to assign them an appropriate grade.

Why do you need a grade at all? Fail, pass, distinction. You either know the answers because you know and understand all the material, or you have no business functioning in that field period.