Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax

argusmedia.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

241–250 of 265 posts

Re: EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax

#241

Post by mardifoufs »

GekkePrutser wrote: post #237
systemvoltage wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of your points are valid. I guess I struggle with the hypocrisy around that fact that if we really want to curb CO2, there is a bigger fish to fry. For example, millions of people travel for pleasure on airplanes. From one point to the otherside of the globe. No one gives a damn about that, but hey! Look, rich people on fancy airplanes. Even just today, GitHub copilot Twitter thread was full of “Rich people (Micr…

I don't think anyone flies to the other side of the globe for fun anymore since Corona. And I don't think this activity will be back any time soon. Holidays where possible will be a lot more local.

> I don't think anyone flies to the other side of the globe for fun anymore since Corona. And I don't think this activity will be back any time soon. Holidays where possible will be a lot more local.

I disagree, people are very very eager to start traveling again. I know that a lot of people around me are literally going to bolt off the second they are allowed to, preferably to the farthest away destination possible. Not that there's anything wrong with that in any case (especially considering how good the vaccines are)

Re: EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax

#242

Post by bellyfullofbac »

bluGill wrote: post #195
emteycz wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Europe, people flying private are overlapping with those sitting in the parliaments.

It is either government, or C level executives in large companies. Nobody else can afford to fly private jets. Even if you fill your private jet with others it is still cheaper to fly first class commercial. I've looked into it, engineers can't afford it unless their company is paying for it.

I follow Formula One drivers on social media, and they regularly posts photos of themselves on private planes. Well technically these are charters, but at the end of the day it's just them and their friends/family on each of these flights.

Re: EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax

#243

Post by yongjik »

pnt12 wrote: post #230
yongjik wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate this kind of rhetoric. Frankly that sounds like: "A proposed solution A to problem X has another problem Y, which proves that it was never about X, and consequently I will refuse to acknowledge problem X - if anyone doesn't like it, it's their fault for not being able to create a perfect solution that gets my approval."

Well, although taxes are usually effective, they affect more the low and middle classes than the rich, as they can opt to pay and enjoy life as usual. Exemption to activities that are mostly enjoyed by the rich is quite absurd. People will be more thoughtful and less cynical when the rich take a serious attitude at ecology and inequality.

You raise a good point, but I think one can criticize the proposed law without painting the whole endeavor as some kind of conspiracy.

Because, when you think about it, climate change will also affect the poor way more than the rich - so some unscrupulous riches do have a vested interest in keeping people cynical, because it's not they who will suffer the consequences - they can retire in some nice mansion in the Arctic.

Re: EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax

#244

Post by whatever1 »

derriz wrote: post #227
whatever1 wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The analysis is completely wrong for a country that is not in the West. Their first assumption is low interest rates for business loans and availability of investment capital. Again, we take these two for granted in the West, but they are not. Second big assumption is the existence of distribution grid and storage. The fact is that we have almost 1 Billion people off grid and by making fossil fuels more expensive to…

It assumes a blended cost of capital of 10% which is very reasonable for utility infrastructure projects even in developing countries. The World Bank charges rates of about 3% for infrastructure projects. I don't get the capital cost argument, both onshore wind and solar PV have between a third and a quarter the capital cost per KW capacity compared to a modern coal plant for example. As I said combined cycle gas is…

"It assumes a blended cost of capital of 10% which is very reasonable for utility infrastructure projects even in developing countries. The World Bank charges rates of about 3% for infrastructure projects."

- I invite you as an investor to go to a developing country's bank and ask for a 10-million-dollar loan with "I don't get the capital cost argument, both onshore wind and solar PV have between a third and a quarter the capital cost per KW capacity compared to a modern coal plant for example. As I said combined cycle gas is currently competitive but the price trajectories mean that solar and wind will not only be cheaper over their lifetimes but the capital cost will be less. Nor do I get the grid argument which is an argument against all utility scale generation, not just solar or wind. Storage or more commonly idling gas backup is required to support fossil fuel generation also. "

- Had they had the access to cheap capital (or any capital) to build a grid they would have done so.

What you propose is for them to starve for some generations until they can build a grid. And even when they do, you will want to sell them more expensive equipment (electric cars, batteries for their grid etc).

Fossils can work without a grid, and they can already improve dramatically life and productivity to enable later public investments to infrastructure.

It is renewables that require huge initial capital investment to work without a grid. Fossils are pay as you go. You only need for example fuel oil in winter to warm your house with a couple of heaters. That is a cost of * " Repeating the claim that deriving more energy from solar and wind or hydro will impoverish people doesn't make it true. To support the claim you need to show that it's a more expensive way of providing electrical energy to people compared to alternative fossil fuel based generation. I've read no analysis which would support such a claim." *

- Covered already.

Re: EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax

#245

Post by ClumsyPilot »

reedjosh wrote: post #189
nicoburns wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you think that rich and powerful private enterprises don't cause exactly the same kind of problems as state governments? They have the same coercive power, albeit through different means.

Choice. I'm not forced into a service provided by anyone. Government is monopoly of violence. For example, mono crop wheat is terrible, but the government uses its monopoly of force to coerce me into subsidies for foods I refuse to eat. These subsidies are the reason it's healthiest to stick to the perimeter of the store. Without them, cheap cereal junk foods would at least not be so cheap. This encouragement of low…

"Choice. I'm not forced into a service provided by anyone."

This us mental gymnastics.

Oh, customer's chose a network operator that sells their data. Nevermind that all 4 network operators sell your data! Or could have chosen to live without a phone and be like a hermit in the woods!

Re: EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax

#246

Post by ClumsyPilot »

reedjosh wrote: post #202
nicoburns wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The government is not a monopoly of violence. Plenty of non-governmental organisations are violent. The existence of private security firms is an obvious example of this. In addition to this, if you support a minimal government that enforces private property rights, then this doesn't eliminate government violence: it allows the wealthy to access it by proxy.

> Plenty of non-governmental organisations are violent. The existence of private security firms is an obvious example of this. These organizations are either government sanctioned or considered criminal. The libertarian viewpoint on this is that all initiation of force is criminal. > if you support a minimal government that enforces private property rights I don't support that. I think individuals should take the pro…

"paying for protection services as needed."

I can't wait untill we have two different "protection services" come into conflict because they are "protecting" different things and we have shootouts on the streets.

Much like the latest incident with Vigilante app, but imagine both entities had good for hire

https://www.theverge.com/2021/5/21/22447446/citizen-app-inte...

Re: EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax

#247

Post by hutzlibu »

mardifoufs wrote: post #241
GekkePrutser wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think anyone flies to the other side of the globe for fun anymore since Corona. And I don't think this activity will be back any time soon. Holidays where possible will be a lot more local.

> I don't think anyone flies to the other side of the globe for fun anymore since Corona. And I don't think this activity will be back any time soon. Holidays where possible will be a lot more local. I disagree, people are very very eager to start traveling again. I know that a lot of people around me are literally going to bolt off the second they are allowed to, preferably to the farthest away destination possible.…

"Not that there's anything wrong with that in any case"

Except for climate change ...

But I also really would like to travel again, far away, so what to do.

Re: EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax

#248

Post by hutzlibu »

hutzlibu wrote: post #154
systemvoltage wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of your points are valid. I guess I struggle with the hypocrisy around that fact that if we really want to curb CO2, there is a bigger fish to fry. For example, millions of people travel for pleasure on airplanes. From one point to the otherside of the globe. No one gives a damn about that, but hey! Look, rich people on fancy airplanes. Even just today, GitHub copilot Twitter thread was full of “Rich people (Micr…

"For example, millions of people travel for pleasure on airplanes. From one point to the otherside of the globe. No one gives a damn about that, but hey! Look, rich people on fancy airplanes" Erm, that is exactly the point of the "mob". The common people do have to pay the tax, while flying crowded and therefore somewhat efficient - and the rich people with their own fuel wasting private jets should pay no tax at all…

"So maybe I am missing something"

So what I was missing is, that apparently commerzial Airliners do benefit from tax free fuel - but private jets do not. They have to pay taxes and a lot more than this tax is going to be initially.

So it seems the whole thing is a weird backward way to take back a bit the tax excemption on tax free airliner fuel?

Re: EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax

#249

Post by stjohnswarts »

js8 wrote: post #130
reedjosh wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The more likely they are to conclide that this is a mugs game This is one of the primary reasons I'm a pure libertarian. The more in depth research I did, the more I found it's nothing but a rigged game. It truly is like the joke that's along the lines of: "What's the difference between the government and the mob?" "The mob didn't get 12,000 hours of schooling to convince you it's necessary."

Honest question from definitely-not-libertarian democratic-socialist. Isn't the main point of libertarianism a defense of private property, concentration of which is eventually exactly the vehicle of oppression? I think libertarianism is quite self-contradictory, because if we assume completely fair starting conditions (they historically never were) and assume that people are renumerated fairly (which is subjective a…

libertarianism has some good traits like ending the drug war, respect for individual rights, and capitalism. Their approach swings to far in the other direction and believe that pure capitalism, a very sue happy populace, and minimal policing to protect property rights and individual rights is enough. They don't believe in regulations for the most part and only a very minimal military. Problems with this include minimal military->your country is over run within a generation or two, unlimited capitalism->money always flows up and the big guys don't give a damn about your rights and have the money to buy off the police. Very active judiciary to allow suing for infringement on property and individual rights --> the judiciary will be bought by the monopoly companies. It does not account sufficiently for all the money eventually working it's way up to the 1% and they essentially control everything and everyone else is a wage slave fighting over the crumbs of the 1% of wealth/pay left.

Re: EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax

#250

Post by emteycz »

WJW wrote: post #164
emteycz wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Europe, people flying private are overlapping with those sitting in the parliaments.

Pretty sure that is not just overlapping in Europe though.

in the USA there is much more people out of the overlap. In Europe, most businessmen can't afford it.
Post reply on HN