Steve Wozniak speaks on Right to Repair [video] • Hacker News Board

Re: Steve Wozniak speaks on Right to Repair [video]

#131

Post by neuralRiot » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 8:12 PM UTC

dpkonofa wrote: post #125

MayeulC wrote: post #12

TL;DW: He's very supportive, and talks about how things used to be fixable and have plans included on paper, "open source". He says Apple II shipped with complete schematics and source code listings.

I hate to be that guy but this sounds very much like "old man recounts tales of how things were 'back in my day' to youngsters". The Apple II was not anywhere near as complex as the computers and devices we're talking about now and it wasn't wrapped up in the patents and chip licenses that nearly every piece of technology today is wrapped up in. You can't even have a DSP (digital signal processor) that would be repai…

One thing we tend to forget is that not everybody lives in the US, there’s a lot of places where repairs are a thing and techs do magic with almost nothing but they need to resource to piracy for information and to black market for replacement parts.

Re: Steve Wozniak speaks on Right to Repair [video]

#132

Post by dpkonofa » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 8:13 PM UTC

iseethroughbs wrote: post #100

We know what Wozniak would say, as he's a tinkerer from a time when computers were "human-sized" and able to be tinkered with. I think realistically the only thing we can demand is user-replaceable battery. Everything else is doomed to end up on a single chip integrated. And that chip either works, or doesn't. It's not about profit, it's about integration and miniaturization.

I think you're exactly right. He's, unfortunately, an artifact from a time when devices just weren't as complex as they are now.

Re: Steve Wozniak speaks on Right to Repair [video]

#133

Post by nicoburns » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 8:16 PM UTC

dpkonofa wrote: post #127

larossmann wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's an interview I did with National Review where I discussed this topic. I'll include the exercpt that applies to your concern below. https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/07/a-computer-repair-exp... "So one example of what Right to Repair is not: The European Union, I believe, was looking to mandate that Apple use USB-C instead of Lightning, because USB-C is a standard and Lightning is not a standard. I don’t want…

With respect, I think you're being disingenuous here and I think you know it. No one is telling customers "your phone is now a brick" when their charge port breaks and "right to repair", as a whole" does not have a fine handle on what's being advocated for. If it did, there wouldn't be so many different variations of understanding for "right to repair" actually is. The number of variations for it in the various bills…

> No one is telling customers "your phone is now a brick" when their charge port breaks

Apple is. They'll "repair" it for you (they go out of their way to make sure that nobody else can - if not with the charge port then certainly with some of the other components) for a price. But they typically do this by replacing the item and destroying the old one. And the difference between that and a true repair matters from an environmental perspective.

Re: Steve Wozniak speaks on Right to Repair [video]

#134

Post by dpkonofa » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 8:20 PM UTC

dwild wrote: post #108

Envec83 wrote: post #2

Am I the only believing it should be a free market, where each company follows the strategy it prefers? Let the market decide if repairability is desired or not. If customers really want it, certainly there will be companies offering it. Much better to have millions voting with their money and purchases than a few bureaucrats deciding how they believe things should be.

> If customers really want it, certainly there will be companies offering it. There is customers that really want it and there's companies that offer it. The big issue is that reparability is an afterthought, you only consider it once you need it and at that point, it's already too late. It's also a rare event, thus again something easy to forget. That's all forgetting the environment impact of replacing a whole unit…

This is another example that, to me, does a disservice to the R2R movement. A tractor doesn't need the technology that John Deere has put into it to limit its functionality. It's a tractor. Tractors have been around for ages and ages and the basic ideas behind how they work hasn't changed. John Deere is artificially limiting the repairability of their tractors. It would be one thing if a "quality of life" component on it went out but the tractor still worked. It's wholly another to say that the whole tractor can't work because a single, optional component is not working. With tech devices, many of the components are either integral to the system or are required in a chain for reasons related to device integrity or security. It's not really the same thing.

Re: Steve Wozniak speaks on Right to Repair [video]

#135

Post by dpkonofa » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 8:22 PM UTC

swiley wrote: post #129

chrisseaton wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great! So what’s the problem?

Apple has made it illegal to obtain parts, people doing this have obtained the parts from other people who are breaking the law/contracts they signed. Apple also uses software to disable replacing parts.

Apple, nor any other tech company, doesn't have the power to make something illegal and they don't artificially disable parts. They disable portions of the device that rely on those parts for integrity or security reasons. Stop lying.

Re: Steve Wozniak speaks on Right to Repair [video]

#136

Post by dpkonofa » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 8:25 PM UTC

nicoburns wrote: post #133

dpkonofa wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With respect, I think you're being disingenuous here and I think you know it. No one is telling customers "your phone is now a brick" when their charge port breaks and "right to repair", as a whole" does not have a fine handle on what's being advocated for. If it did, there wouldn't be so many different variations of understanding for "right to repair" actually is. The number of variations for it in the various bills…

> No one is telling customers "your phone is now a brick" when their charge port breaks Apple is. They'll "repair" it for you (they go out of their way to make sure that nobody else can - if not with the charge port then certainly with some of the other components) for a price. But they typically do this by replacing the item and destroying the old one. And the difference between that and a true repair matters from a…

This is not true. Apple does not say your phone is a brick and they don't destroy old devices. They disassemble them and re-use the working components to build remanufactured devices for warranty use. They literally have multi-million dollar machines that are built specifically to be able to take apart old iPhones component by component to allow them to be reused or reintegrated into the manufacturing process for warranty devices.

This is the kind of stuff I talk about when I say that people like you are hurting the R2R movement. Either you're not aware of these things or you're intentionally being misleading to try and push people into supporting R2R. In both cases, you're doing a disservice to the discussion.

https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/19/17258180/apple-daisy-ipho...

Re: Steve Wozniak speaks on Right to Repair [video]

#137

Post by chrisseaton » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 8:25 PM UTC

mensetmanusman wrote: post #128

chrisseaton wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great! So what’s the problem?

Apple doesn’t allow or release parts.

So go to Apple or an authorised servicer to get it repaired?

Re: Steve Wozniak speaks on Right to Repair [video]

#138

Post by dpkonofa » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 8:30 PM UTC

neuralRiot wrote: post #131

dpkonofa wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate to be that guy but this sounds very much like "old man recounts tales of how things were 'back in my day' to youngsters". The Apple II was not anywhere near as complex as the computers and devices we're talking about now and it wasn't wrapped up in the patents and chip licenses that nearly every piece of technology today is wrapped up in. You can't even have a DSP (digital signal processor) that would be repai…

One thing we tend to forget is that not everybody lives in the US, there’s a lot of places where repairs are a thing and techs do magic with almost nothing but they need to resource to piracy for information and to black market for replacement parts.

While this is definitely true, I think it's less of an issue than we might think at first glance. There's nothing currently that would prevent a repair shop from repairing a device or sourcing parts from other devices. Even if we're talking about Apple devices or even Sony devices, there needs to be a balance between repairability and access. Back when the Apple II was released, the internet didn't really exist so someone's issues or complaints with a device were pretty localized. Now, someone with enough social followers can create a PR nightmare for a company based on something that's totally out of that company's control so it's no surprise that no one wants to open up that Pandora's box.

I'm fascinated by the fact that people like Louis Rossmann are both the perfect example of why Right to Repair should work while at the same time being an amazing example of why the current versions of R2R can't work.

Re: Steve Wozniak speaks on Right to Repair [video]

#139

Post by aequitas » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 8:30 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #61

vbezhenar wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My anecdote: I bought Dell Latitude and there are instructions how to disassemble the entire laptop on the Dell website. I did not see circuit schematics, though I'm not skilled enough to make any use of it, but it's something at least. I easily upgraded RAM and installed SSD. That was one of the factors of choosing this specific laptop for me, I wonder how many people consider it. I had terrible experience with Appl…

But then you have to have a laptop that looks and feels and works like a Dell Latitude. That fixability has a cost in ugliness and weight and usability. No thanks.

There is a broad spectrum between a fully modular fat and ugly laptop and a glued shut light and shiny one. Also right to repair is not only about how trivial a repair steps should be, but how easy it is to get spare parts and schematics to do proper repairs at all.

Re: Steve Wozniak speaks on Right to Repair [video]

#140

Post by aequitas » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 8:36 PM UTC

farias0 wrote: post #64

tqwhite wrote: post #59

I was a young person during the tube era. My dad was one of those guys with a bag full of tubes. The reason he was carrying them around was that NOTHING WORKED. The 'right to repair' was actually, a horrible 'burden of repair'. It's great that it helped Woz made Apple but it was also an era of buggy whips whose passing I do not lament. I would not support anything that added a microgram to my iPhone or MacBook or giv…

It's not supporting "the tiny fraction of people who can do repairs". It's supporting everyone who might choose to take it to a third party instead of Apple when it breaks -- be it for better price, better service, or even to force Apple to be competitive on both fronts. Hell, it's even supporting the very idea of fixable devices, as this arguably impacts not only post-sale support, but also the very design of said d…

> be it for better price, better service, or even to force Apple to be competitive on both fronts

Just being able to take your Apple device to a local repair shop, have it diagnosed and repaired while you wait, instead of driving through half the country and having to give up your device for days/weeks because Apple authorised repair centers are not allowed to keep spare parts in stock and have a whole backlog of repairs to perform.