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EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax

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Re: EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax

#181

Post by nicoburns »

Sharlin wrote: post #145
whiddershins wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait but rockets don’t use fossil fuels, do they?

Oh, but they do. New Shepard uses liquid hydrogen, which is not a fossil fuel per se , but in practice hydrogen is currently made from fossil fuels. SpaceShipTwo uses HTPB which is a hydrocarbon oligomer, basically synthetic rubber, definitely a fossil fuel. Falcon 9 first stage engines use RP-1, a fancy type of jet fuel. The Starship first stage uses methane, a fossil fuel (although it could be made renewably as wel…

A quick google says it took 2.90652E11 joules ~= 80MWh to get Saturn V to the moon. That seems like it'd actually be quite doable to do with renewables if you didn't need to fly too often.

Re: EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax

#182

Post by sokoloff »

LudwigNagasena wrote: post #127
_rpd wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The actual reason for the exemption is that they cannot impose the tax on non-EU operators, giving the non-EU operators a competitive advantage.

They can’t impose a tax on jets that use their airspace?

Eurocontrol already has fees for ATC usage. This fuel tax is presumably in addition to that.

Re: EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax

#183

Post by nicoburns »

js8 wrote: post #130
reedjosh wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The more likely they are to conclide that this is a mugs game This is one of the primary reasons I'm a pure libertarian. The more in depth research I did, the more I found it's nothing but a rigged game. It truly is like the joke that's along the lines of: "What's the difference between the government and the mob?" "The mob didn't get 12,000 hours of schooling to convince you it's necessary."

Honest question from definitely-not-libertarian democratic-socialist. Isn't the main point of libertarianism a defense of private property, concentration of which is eventually exactly the vehicle of oppression? I think libertarianism is quite self-contradictory, because if we assume completely fair starting conditions (they historically never were) and assume that people are renumerated fairly (which is subjective a…

If you generalise the libertarian principle to all large organisations and powerful individuals rather than just governments then it starts to make a whole lot more sense.

Re: EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax

#184

Post by muyuu »

js8 wrote: post #45
shreyshnaccount wrote: post #32

The EU has been completely bonkers for the last few years. Just staggeringly stupid policy I mean look at them literally banning encryption and then this I'm confused but the ppl running the eu are more confused

The EU (especially the Eurozone) was designed when neoliberal paradigm was in fashion (1980s-1990s). That's why currently its core institutions are less democratic than they should be.

an ivory tower style structure like that of the EU can only end up on fascism, communism or an equivalently authoritarian system

Re: EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax

#185

Post by jaywalk »

Teknoman117 wrote: post #172
ithkuil wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And it's not even about forbidding them to so it. It's just about paying a little bit of taxes. Is the fuel taxes such a big part of the cost of flying a private jet? Is it just that those people hate paying taxes on principle (and manage to lobby for it)?

I'm fairly certain that dominating costs of a private jet besides the initial purchase price are the maintenance and employing a flight crew. Fuel price is probably a rounding error in comparison (they get a few miles per gallon). Edit - some quick Googling suggests that jet fuel costs $1.96/gallon in the US at the end of last week. Jets aren't cars, you can't just change the oil every 3 months and have it run for ye…

Fuel costs are a large component of private jet ownership costs. I found a great chart that breaks it all down: https://www.libertyjet.com/jet-ownership-costs.aspx?jetType=...

Re: EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax

#186

Post by nicoburns »

reedjosh wrote: post #179
ClumsyPilot wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The elephant in the room, what do you do with monopolies and cartels? How 'pure' is pure libertarian? Do we allow private currencies to be issues by anyone, this used to be a massive problem? Does someone in 'pure libertatian' society get a free defence attorney or school education? Do we have fire safety laws? We used to have entire cities burn down. Do we regulate banks and financial markets at all? Do we have a re…

I'm not going to expound on all topics here. Instead I'll give you a resource that closely matches my thoughts on one of the subjects of concern. > We used to have entire cities burn down. https://mises.org/library/development-municipal-fire-departm... This same resource hits nearly every one of your points with well reasoned alternatives to government intervention. Instead of expecting an answer to every what if tha…

What makes you think that rich and powerful private enterprises don't cause exactly the same kind of problems as state governments? They have the same coercive power, albeit through different means.

Re: EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax

#187

Post by reedjosh »

js8 wrote: post #130
reedjosh wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The more likely they are to conclide that this is a mugs game This is one of the primary reasons I'm a pure libertarian. The more in depth research I did, the more I found it's nothing but a rigged game. It truly is like the joke that's along the lines of: "What's the difference between the government and the mob?" "The mob didn't get 12,000 hours of schooling to convince you it's necessary."

Honest question from definitely-not-libertarian democratic-socialist. Isn't the main point of libertarianism a defense of private property, concentration of which is eventually exactly the vehicle of oppression? I think libertarianism is quite self-contradictory, because if we assume completely fair starting conditions (they historically never were) and assume that people are renumerated fairly (which is subjective a…

> concentration of which is eventually exactly the vehicle of oppression?

But concentration to this degree practically requires government force to survive. I believe even those on your side of the political spectrum believe that corruption is what prevents the people from properly benefiting from government intervention.

I believe both you and I want us to stop (or never have started) all the wars of the past 20 years. This is a very popular viewpoint, yet moneyed interests prevent this.

I believe you and I have like ideals, but I don't believe deference to authority can ever bring them about. Authority always ends up corrupt.

> This contradiction was actually pointed out by Marx, who predicted that end of capitalism (a revolution) will come out as a result of this process.

And yet the Soviet Union is the system that fell.

Re: EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax

#188

Post by tonyedgecombe »

reedjosh wrote: post #179
ClumsyPilot wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The elephant in the room, what do you do with monopolies and cartels? How 'pure' is pure libertarian? Do we allow private currencies to be issues by anyone, this used to be a massive problem? Does someone in 'pure libertatian' society get a free defence attorney or school education? Do we have fire safety laws? We used to have entire cities burn down. Do we regulate banks and financial markets at all? Do we have a re…

I'm not going to expound on all topics here. Instead I'll give you a resource that closely matches my thoughts on one of the subjects of concern. > We used to have entire cities burn down. https://mises.org/library/development-municipal-fire-departm... This same resource hits nearly every one of your points with well reasoned alternatives to government intervention. Instead of expecting an answer to every what if tha…

Imagine how that would play out post Grenfell. No we can't put out your fire because your builder used the wrong cladding, you should have read the T's and C's. Tough luck.

It's always in the interest of insurance companies to pay out as little as they can get away with.

Re: EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax

#189

Post by reedjosh »

nicoburns wrote: post #186
reedjosh wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not going to expound on all topics here. Instead I'll give you a resource that closely matches my thoughts on one of the subjects of concern. > We used to have entire cities burn down. https://mises.org/library/development-municipal-fire-departm... This same resource hits nearly every one of your points with well reasoned alternatives to government intervention. Instead of expecting an answer to every what if tha…

What makes you think that rich and powerful private enterprises don't cause exactly the same kind of problems as state governments? They have the same coercive power, albeit through different means.

Choice. I'm not forced into a service provided by anyone.

Government is monopoly of violence.

For example, mono crop wheat is terrible, but the government uses its monopoly of force to coerce me into subsidies for foods I refuse to eat.

These subsidies are the reason it's healthiest to stick to the perimeter of the store. Without them, cheap cereal junk foods would at least not be so cheap.

This encouragement of low quality mono cropping directly supports big ag and companies like Monsanto. I'd much rather spend my money at a local farm.

Re: EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax

#190

Post by [deleted] »

hutzlibu wrote: post #154
systemvoltage wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of your points are valid. I guess I struggle with the hypocrisy around that fact that if we really want to curb CO2, there is a bigger fish to fry. For example, millions of people travel for pleasure on airplanes. From one point to the otherside of the globe. No one gives a damn about that, but hey! Look, rich people on fancy airplanes. Even just today, GitHub copilot Twitter thread was full of “Rich people (Micr…

"For example, millions of people travel for pleasure on airplanes. From one point to the otherside of the globe. No one gives a damn about that, but hey! Look, rich people on fancy airplanes" Erm, that is exactly the point of the "mob". The common people do have to pay the tax, while flying crowded and therefore somewhat efficient - and the rich people with their own fuel wasting private jets should pay no tax at all…

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