Juul bought an entire issue of a scholarly journal • Hacker News Board

Re: Juul bought an entire issue of a scholarly journal

#261

Post by grawprog » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 5:00 PM UTC

petercooper wrote: post #259

Before I start I note that I'm old enough to do what I want and I have no other habits/vices, but don't vape, kids ;-) So I, a total non-smoker, started experimenting with nicotine a few weeks ago. First I tried gum which did nothing but give me an itchy throat. Then I bought a vaping device and some juices. Why? I think I'm low in dopamine (I am not depressed, though) and had read nicotine provides a temporary boost…

>I quite like the taste and mouth feel of the smoke but the nicotine itself is a bust. Perhaps a very mild caffeine-esque feeling at a push? It hasn't proven addictive as it's been sat out in my car untouched for the past four days!

As someone who stupidly started smoking later in life, that's pretty much how it goes. Nicotine addiction isn't like on TV where you smoke a cigarette or puff a vape and suddenly you're hooked. It's a slow process you find yourself doing more and more often until you realize one day, it's every day all the time.

Re: Juul bought an entire issue of a scholarly journal

#262

Post by dntrkv » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 5:01 PM UTC

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #257

dntrkv wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Juul is the largest player in the game and were the first ones to use nicotine salts. There are many other companies ready to take their place (and they already are). The only "option" is to ban vaping outright. But then you're also banning the best smoking substitute.

> The only "option" is to ban vaping outright. But then you're also banning the best smoking substitute. That's not the only option. So much of the deserved vitriol against Juul is because their marketing and everything else about their product (e.g. fruit flavors) were specifically designed to get kids hooked. Juul's marketing should be the poster child for the banality of evil.

Fruit flavors do not exist because of the need to market to kids. Go into any vape shop and watch as grown-ass men, one after another, buy vape cartridges with names like Unicorn Blueberry Smoothie. Children aren't the only ones that like tasty flavors.

As far as their marketing targeting children, I haven't seen any examples of that. Using millennials in your adverts does not equate to targeting children.

Re: Juul bought an entire issue of a scholarly journal

#263

Post by freedomben » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 5:03 PM UTC

petercooper wrote: post #259

Before I start I note that I'm old enough to do what I want and I have no other habits/vices, but don't vape, kids ;-) So I, a total non-smoker, started experimenting with nicotine a few weeks ago. First I tried gum which did nothing but give me an itchy throat. Then I bought a vaping device and some juices. Why? I think I'm low in dopamine (I am not depressed, though) and had read nicotine provides a temporary boost…

I smoked a variety of tobacco products for years and never got anything out of it either, so it may be that some people just don't work with it. I quit trying long before vaping became a thing but I would expect similar results.

I did end up moving to dip (Skoal) however and that worked. It was never more than a minor buzz but at least it did something. For me it was incredibly relaxing. I quit dip years ago as well but I still find myself with urges to put one in while driving, and especially after meals. Highly addictive stuff and you don't even see it coming.

If you're thinking of trying it though, it is really easy to overdo it and end up dizzy or sick. This is especially true on your first dip. If you're going to try it, take a small pinch first! If you overdo it, lie down and take a nap and sleep it off.

Re: Juul bought an entire issue of a scholarly journal

#264

Post by zeroego » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 5:03 PM UTC

petercooper wrote: post #259

Before I start I note that I'm old enough to do what I want and I have no other habits/vices, but don't vape, kids ;-) So I, a total non-smoker, started experimenting with nicotine a few weeks ago. First I tried gum which did nothing but give me an itchy throat. Then I bought a vaping device and some juices. Why? I think I'm low in dopamine (I am not depressed, though) and had read nicotine provides a temporary boost…

Have unfortunately been a smoker on and off for a while. Am currently using a Juul and have successfully been winding down my nicotine dependence again. They way I initially got hooked was in college. I would not mix alcohol with your nicotine experience. You'll feel it much more acutely. I've also read/heard that people with ADHD are far more susceptible to nicotine addiction FWIW.

Re: Juul bought an entire issue of a scholarly journal

#265

Post by axaxs » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 5:03 PM UTC

grawprog wrote: post #261

petercooper wrote: post #259

Before I start I note that I'm old enough to do what I want and I have no other habits/vices, but don't vape, kids ;-) So I, a total non-smoker, started experimenting with nicotine a few weeks ago. First I tried gum which did nothing but give me an itchy throat. Then I bought a vaping device and some juices. Why? I think I'm low in dopamine (I am not depressed, though) and had read nicotine provides a temporary boost…

>I quite like the taste and mouth feel of the smoke but the nicotine itself is a bust. Perhaps a very mild caffeine-esque feeling at a push? It hasn't proven addictive as it's been sat out in my car untouched for the past four days! As someone who stupidly started smoking later in life, that's pretty much how it goes. Nicotine addiction isn't like on TV where you smoke a cigarette or puff a vape and suddenly you're h…

I'll add to that - I never found nicotine that addictive. Some grogginess, a little on edge, gone before you know it.

What's hard to quit are the motor memories/habits. Get in the car, reach for your ... wait no we quit that. You start realizing how many little habits you have that way.

Re: Juul bought an entire issue of a scholarly journal

#266

Post by beowulfey » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 5:04 PM UTC

petercooper wrote: post #259

Before I start I note that I'm old enough to do what I want and I have no other habits/vices, but don't vape, kids ;-) So I, a total non-smoker, started experimenting with nicotine a few weeks ago. First I tried gum which did nothing but give me an itchy throat. Then I bought a vaping device and some juices. Why? I think I'm low in dopamine (I am not depressed, though) and had read nicotine provides a temporary boost…

I have never smoked, but the impression I had was that sensation of relief happens after you become addicted. When addicted but not smoking, you feel withdrawal effects that are diminished in a quick surge upon smoking again.

Not feeling anything is good…

Re: Juul bought an entire issue of a scholarly journal

#267

Post by kenjackson » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 5:04 PM UTC

fennecfoxen wrote: post #222

ud_0 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Scientism has become the state religion and companies are paying for indulgences. I was unfamiliar with that term and googled it: it's described as " excessive belief in the power of scientific knowledge and techniques ". I'm struggling a bit to understand how a belief in the importance of scientific knowledge and techniques equates to a religious mindset. In an ideal world, I would absolutely prefer my government…

As a hypothetical example: "excessive deference to science" might occur when you have a global pandemic, and a government official says, "I am following the science. Therefore an attack on me is an attack on science." This official asks for exciting new emergency powers, and uses them to push through measures which coincidentally achieve policy goals he couldn't achieve before the pandemic. In the name of Science™, h…

That isn’t deference to science. That’s just someone who can align himself to something and use it t to make himself untouchable. You see the sand thing with religion or nationalism. “An attack on me is an attack on our veterans!”

It really has nothing to do with science.

Re: Juul bought an entire issue of a scholarly journal

#268

Post by boredtofears » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 5:05 PM UTC

Semaphor wrote: post #143

TeMPOraL wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it's not a smoking cessation product. It can be used effectively as such, but it's first and foremost a healthier substitute to smoking. People like to go to both extremes wrt. vaping - "but it creates new addicts" vs. "but it's effective tool for breaking addiction", forgetting about the biggest benefit vaping brings: letting smokers who don't want to quit to keep smoking, without risking lung cancer. I'm defini…

> letting smokers who don't want to quit to keep smoking, without risking lung cancer. I started smoking when I was 18 (2004), picked up some of the first vapes in 2009 (they were horrible), and finally stopped smoking in 2012. But I don’t want to stop vaping. I don’t like the modern mainstream ecigs like juul (I mix my own liquid and build my own coils on a dual 18650 battery device), but I’m just glad that vaping e…

Is it accurate to say you quit smoking when you've really just switched the device that delivers the substance you're addicted to?

Re: Juul bought an entire issue of a scholarly journal

#269

Post by deftnerd » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 5:06 PM UTC

dntrkv wrote: post #227

Judgmentality wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don't have as much data on vaping as we do for smoking, but this reminds me of what cigarette companies said for decades: "where is the data showing our products are harmful?" We already know vaping causes popcorn lung. I suspect 1:1 between vaping and smoking that vaping is safer, but who knows? We won't know until we have decades of data about mortality related to vaping. It seems plausible that it increases lun…

> We already know vaping causes popcorn lung. Not true. The data we have shows that it was being caused by Vitamin E acetate, which was used by off-brand THC cartridges. None of the major nicotine vapes used this chemical. Also, this attitude of "oh we don't know" could be extended to any new product anywhere, including the vaccines we are using now. All of the current data supports vaping to be significantly safer t…

Well, there also incidents about 5 years of people making vape juice with Diacetyl, a food additive that gives a creamy buttery taste. Turned out that while it was food safe, bringing it to the temperature necessary for vaping did bad things to it and it also caused "popcorn lung"

Re: Juul bought an entire issue of a scholarly journal

#270

Post by mumblemumble » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 5:07 PM UTC

jasonhansel wrote: post #166

pope_meat wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fun fact, if you claim to be a smoking cessation product you get the FDA at your door going "oh, so this is a medical product" and you're now obligated to prove that your product works as a medical cessation product, and requires a doctor's note to pick up. You can't market yourself as a smoking cessation product without getting the hounds of hell being unleashed on you by the regulators.

> you're now obligated to prove that your product works And that's a bad thing?

There's an interesting tradeoff there. Getting through clinical trials to prove it works is expensive, though that's realistically more an annoyance to the company than a problem for the public. But once you have gone through all of that, you're probably looking at the product now being sold for a higher price (increased barriers to entry means more competition), and possibly only by prescription. Which might severely reduce availability to less-wealthy smokers. Which, I think at this point, is most smokers. On the other hand, that would also severely reduce availability to kids who aren't already addicted to some other tobacco product. So there's that.

Long story short, I can imagine a lot of valid arguments pointing in every which way here.