Steve Wozniak speaks on Right to Repair [video] • Hacker News Board

Re: Steve Wozniak speaks on Right to Repair [video]

#71

Post by beefok » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 3:52 PM UTC

tqwhite wrote: post #59

I was a young person during the tube era. My dad was one of those guys with a bag full of tubes. The reason he was carrying them around was that NOTHING WORKED. The 'right to repair' was actually, a horrible 'burden of repair'. It's great that it helped Woz made Apple but it was also an era of buggy whips whose passing I do not lament. I would not support anything that added a microgram to my iPhone or MacBook or giv…

This is kind of off topic, but, in my mind, 'right to repair' has more to do with combatting throw-away consumerism versus quality products. Certain appliances could be made much better over having to buy 10 annoying dryers over the course of your lifetime (or whatever product becomes harder to DIY repair.) The amount of waste produced every time someone buys the next generation just because something broke outpaces the ability to recycle/repair, hell even lightbulbs [1]. There's also market value in making things intentionally obsolescent after a small amount of time. For instance, Apple purposefully slowing down an iPhone when there's a new model [2].

I'm not 'anti-consumerist', I'm just aware that we've built a society around throwing things away way before their expected physical lifetime of use.

[1] https://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-history/dawn-of-electronics/t... [2] https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-51706635

Re: Steve Wozniak speaks on Right to Repair [video]

#72

Post by judge2020 » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 3:57 PM UTC

FPGAhacker wrote: post #56

dijit wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to see evidence supporting that. The reason _I_ buy apple products is because they actually fix my machine when I bring it in for repair and don't do what HP, Dell and ASUS used to do which is hide behind: "please resend", "works for us", "we've had it for 18 weeks and now the warranty period is over" stuff.

I use apple mainly now, but my dell repair experiences were fantastic. They always sent a tech to me to do the repair. Support was always my #1 reason for choosing dell.

I've had good luck getting them done on-site in the business context, but otherwise they required shipping it or simply recommended Geek Squad since I live in a far-out suburb.

Re: Steve Wozniak speaks on Right to Repair [video]

#73

Post by boyadjian » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 4:05 PM UTC

The problem is not only the right to repair, but that some product available for sale, are of such bad quality, that they will work only for a very limited time. Buying a good brand is the most important thing. For example, a good brand will provide spare parts to allow you to repair yourself

Re: Steve Wozniak speaks on Right to Repair [video]

#74

Post by kipchak » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 4:16 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #61

vbezhenar wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My anecdote: I bought Dell Latitude and there are instructions how to disassemble the entire laptop on the Dell website. I did not see circuit schematics, though I'm not skilled enough to make any use of it, but it's something at least. I easily upgraded RAM and installed SSD. That was one of the factors of choosing this specific laptop for me, I wonder how many people consider it. I had terrible experience with Appl…

But then you have to have a laptop that looks and feels and works like a Dell Latitude. That fixability has a cost in ugliness and weight and usability. No thanks.

I wonder what the closest comparison of weight for a repairable vs unpreparable laptop would be - a Latitude 5320 is lighter than a 13" MBP but that's largely due to plastic vs aluminum. Maybe the 2015 to 2016 13" MBP is a good comparison at .5 Lbs difference?

Re: Steve Wozniak speaks on Right to Repair [video]

#75

Post by Sunspark » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 4:22 PM UTC

tqwhite wrote: post #60

MayeulC wrote: post #12

TL;DW: He's very supportive, and talks about how things used to be fixable and have plans included on paper, "open source". He says Apple II shipped with complete schematics and source code listings.

The reason it was fixable is because almost nothing worked correctly for very long once it left the factory. It was not a golden age. Our TV was out for a month once because my dad could not figure it out.

Why didn't he just call a repairman?

Re: Steve Wozniak speaks on Right to Repair [video]

#76

Post by a1371 » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 4:22 PM UTC

underseacables wrote: post #70

I love Woz, but does he still retain any sway in the community? He has often spoke out in favor of things or against things but it doesn’t seem to really matter to the industry.

Yes it will matter a lot. Apple is one of the giants standing in the way of right to repair. Being able to say "Apple cofounder is with us" will be a huge convincing point for the general public. The plan is to put the right to repair on the ballot, so public support levels do matter.

Re: Steve Wozniak speaks on Right to Repair [video]

#77

Post by rightbyte » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 4:24 PM UTC

kiba wrote: post #45

trentnix wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are describing a "free for all" market, not a "free market". Protection for patents and trademarks is absolutely compatible with a "free market" economy. But that doesn't mean that all patents and trademarks that have been granted are valid. The patent and trademark system needs work, but the baby should not be thrown out with the bathwater.

The patent and trademark system needs work, but the baby should not be thrown out with the bathwater. There's so many kinds and examples of egregious behaviors by patent holders that you have to wonder if we're just better off with starting from scratch and deal with the tradeoff that may come with it.

Atleast for software. Most software patents I read are silly.

Re: Steve Wozniak speaks on Right to Repair [video]

#78

Post by howaboutnope » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 4:27 PM UTC

Envec83 wrote: post #2

Am I the only believing it should be a free market, where each company follows the strategy it prefers? Let the market decide if repairability is desired or not. If customers really want it, certainly there will be companies offering it. Much better to have millions voting with their money and purchases than a few bureaucrats deciding how they believe things should be.

> a few bureaucrats deciding how they believe things should be

Classic.

> What has been created by this half century of massive corporate propaganda is what's called "anti-politics". So that anything that goes wrong, you blame the government. Well okay, there's plenty to blame the government about, but the government is the one institution that people can change... the one institution that you can affect without institutional change. That's exactly why all the anger and fear has been directed at the government. The government has a defect - it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect - they're pure tyrannies. So therefore you want to keep corporations invisible, and focus all anger on the government. So if you don't like something, you know, your wages are going down, you blame the government. Not blame the guys in the Fortune 500, because you don't read the Fortune 500. You just read what they tell you in the newspapers... so you don't read about the dazzling profits and the stupendous dizz, and the wages going down and so on, all you know is that the bad government is doing something, so let's get mad at the government.

-- Noam Chomsky

> The neoliberal era of the last generation is dedicated, in principle, to destroying the only means we have to defend ourselves from destruction. It's not called that, what it's called is shifting decision-making from public institutions, which at least in principle are under public influence, to private institutions which are immune from public control, in principle. That's called "shifting to the market", it's under the rhetoric of freedom, but it just means servitude. It means servitude to unaccountable private institutions.

-- Noam Chomsky

The (not really) free market already decided that the rich should get richer that survival of the human species doesn't even compute as an agenda item. How inspiring, how wise.

And of course, people organizing themselves via government is just "a few bureacrats", but you asking if you're "the only one" to believe what you believe, or a company "deciding the strategy it prefers", that's different.

Re: Steve Wozniak speaks on Right to Repair [video]

#79

Post by Dracophoenix » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 4:28 PM UTC

overscore wrote: post #39

trentnix wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are describing a "free for all" market, not a "free market". Protection for patents and trademarks is absolutely compatible with a "free market" economy. But that doesn't mean that all patents and trademarks that have been granted are valid. The patent and trademark system needs work, but the baby should not be thrown out with the bathwater.

Environmental and consumer rights regulations are also compatible with a free market.

No they are not. Patents are incentives. You can weigh the benefits or lack thereof and chooses to opt-in or opt-out. Regulations are a government-created burden. You can't opt out of a regulation.

Re: Steve Wozniak speaks on Right to Repair [video]

#80

Post by swiley » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 4:31 PM UTC

itismetheidiot wrote: post #4

Envec83 wrote: post #2

Am I the only believing it should be a free market, where each company follows the strategy it prefers? Let the market decide if repairability is desired or not. If customers really want it, certainly there will be companies offering it. Much better to have millions voting with their money and purchases than a few bureaucrats deciding how they believe things should be.

For a European the above statement sounds so strange, alsmost fictional like. I thought that we have already established that a truly free market does not exist.

I've had similar emotional reactions to hearing about Europeans censoring/surveilling their citizens (openly, unlike in the US where it still happens but it's "secret" and illegal.)