We’re all criminals now • Hacker News Board

Re: We’re all criminals now

#41

Post by zionic » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 4:16 PM UTC

dash2 wrote: post #16

jeroenhd wrote: post #5

The point of crypto currency is to do the exact thing money laundering laws try to prevent: to transfer large sums of cash untraceably across the globe, with no way for the government to do anything about it. Recently it's become a game of baseless investment, but anyone actually wanting to use crypto currencies as payment should've seen this coming from miles away.

It's not just money-laundering laws. It's also more general "financial repression", i.e. being forced to hold local currencies while the government inflates them and/or holds the interest rate down. The two tend to blur into each other, I guess.

Exactly. 350+ million people get screwed when the government triples the money supply, but relatively few people use crypto to buy coke and that’s suddenly what it’s all about.

Re: We’re all criminals now

#42

Post by axx0 » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 4:16 PM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #27

infamouscow wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The point of crypto currency is to do the exact thing money laundering laws try to prevent No. That's not the point of cryptocurrency. > to transfer large sums of cash untraceably across the globe Wrong again. You can trace all transactions across the globe with cryptocurrency. > with no way for the government to do anything about it Why is that a bad thing?

> Why is that a bad thing? It inhibits tax collection, which funds common goods. It also thwarts law enforcement, which is counter to public benefit. We can debate whether taxes or laws or governments should exist. But they do, and most people seem to favor that. Debating a thing and actively subverting it are different. Just as subverting a thing and expecting such subversion to have no consequences or response are…

How exactly does this inhibit tax collection?

Re: We’re all criminals now

#43

Post by ineedasername » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 4:16 PM UTC

rawtxapp wrote: post #20

Loic wrote: post #17

Just remembering what someone from the trade directorate of the EU told me a some years ago about Bitcoin: "If it starts to have a real impact on the ability to collect taxes and control money transfers we are simply going to make it illegal".

Except by then the cat is out of the bag and significant % of the population/institutions holds it and you can't hurt your own population without swift opposition. It's pretty clever if it works out.

I don't think we've hit that critical mass yet though. And increased regulation can simply kill it by inches so there's no sudden cliff to drop off of that gets people too upset.

Re: We’re all criminals now

#44

Post by nostrademons » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 4:16 PM UTC

verdverm wrote: post #18

kache_ wrote: post #2

Thank god for monero

If Monero is made illegal, how do you buy basic necessities with it? (i.e. why do you think there is something inherently different about monero)

In many developing countries, the black market exceeds the size of the "legitimate" economy by many multiples. Monero just codifies what people already do with a currency that's out of control of the local government (and presumably inflates less).

Re: We’re all criminals now

#45

Post by JumpCrisscross » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 4:17 PM UTC

ethbr0 wrote: post #40

rawtxapp wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except by then the cat is out of the bag and significant % of the population/institutions holds it and you can't hurt your own population without swift opposition. It's pretty clever if it works out.

The inversion of monetary control is the biggest reason my mind boggles that governments haven't clamped down harder. The only explanation I can come up with is that institutional banking / government regulation is so stodgy that they haven't played out the decade+ repercussions. Because after viable value is established, it's going to be a hard genie to put back in the bottle. It's much harder to make something that…

> institutional banking / government regulation is so stodgy that they haven't played out the decade+ repercussions

Crypto is massively profitable. Wall Street hasn't seen margins like these in a long time. There aren't clear and present harms accruing to the electorate. That leaves no incentive, in countries without capital controls, to bother with it.

Re: We’re all criminals now

#46

Post by RustyConsul » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 4:17 PM UTC

I miss the old crypto.

When it was this fringe, nerdy digital coin i could transfer to my friends to pay my bar tab. Yeah - Venmo/paypal/ a billion other systems that did the same thing, but to my friends btc and eventually eth was cooler.

I could stake coins, provide liquidity, mine random coins from my laptop - It was fun. The concept of a global computer was awesome, interesting and nerdy. I've never used an exchange, but i could watch my coins go up and use them to play a couple random Play-To-Earn games, which was also fun.

Now we got all these 'Scam' Coins. But they aren't scams because they literally come out and say they are scams but still achieve billions of dollars in market cap because everyone is just trying to make a quick buck/ have constrained liquidity.

I think the SEC needs to come in and regulate this space, it would be a very welcome change to what crypto has become. Make stablecoins have 24/7 auditability of their investments and have some vetting mechanism to trade on exchanges. That would make it nerdy and cool again.

Re: We’re all criminals now

#47

Post by JumpCrisscross » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 4:18 PM UTC

axx0 wrote: post #42

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why is that a bad thing? It inhibits tax collection, which funds common goods. It also thwarts law enforcement, which is counter to public benefit. We can debate whether taxes or laws or governments should exist. But they do, and most people seem to favor that. Debating a thing and actively subverting it are different. Just as subverting a thing and expecting such subversion to have no consequences or response are…

How exactly does this inhibit tax collection?

> How exactly does this inhibit tax collection?

If you have something that lets you "transfer large sums of cash untraceably across the globe, with no way for the government to do anything about it," it's going to make it easier to hide income and assets. That inhibits tax collection. (Same way cash does.)

Re: We’re all criminals now

#48

Post by rawtxapp » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 4:18 PM UTC

ethbr0 wrote: post #40

rawtxapp wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except by then the cat is out of the bag and significant % of the population/institutions holds it and you can't hurt your own population without swift opposition. It's pretty clever if it works out.

The inversion of monetary control is the biggest reason my mind boggles that governments haven't clamped down harder. The only explanation I can come up with is that institutional banking / government regulation is so stodgy that they haven't played out the decade+ repercussions. Because after viable value is established, it's going to be a hard genie to put back in the bottle. It's much harder to make something that…

I think they haven't taken it seriously in the same way that newspapers didn't take internet seriously and by the time they did, it was way too late.

Re: We’re all criminals now

#49

Post by twox2 » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 4:19 PM UTC

rawtxapp wrote: post #20

Loic wrote: post #17

Just remembering what someone from the trade directorate of the EU told me a some years ago about Bitcoin: "If it starts to have a real impact on the ability to collect taxes and control money transfers we are simply going to make it illegal".

Except by then the cat is out of the bag and significant % of the population/institutions holds it and you can't hurt your own population without swift opposition. It's pretty clever if it works out.

That wouldn't be a big hurdle to overcome. They will just outlaw self-custody and make it illegal for you to own your own wallet/private keys without some kind of money license. The institutions will be unaffected if they still want to play with crypto for whatever reason, but other folks are going to be screwed because they won't be able to move their money in and out of fiat.

Re: We’re all criminals now

#50

Post by DistantCl3ric » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 4:20 PM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #33

rawtxapp wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can compel the bank directly, no one can "force" the blockchain do to anything that's not programmed to do.

> can compel the bank directly, no one can "force" the blockchain do to anything that's not programmed to do This doesn't work with banks outside a court's jurisdiction. That doesn't stop enforcement. We already have tools that informally designate tainted versus untainted wallets. Incorporating that into the law wouldn't be that difficult nor, I suspect, controversial.

This is the issue though. Reserve banks doesnt want money flowing out of SA to any organisation it cannot compel.

Enter the exchange control laws from the 60s that still limit capital flow out of SA.

1m ZAR per annum per person(~70k USD) this includes things like Netflix subscriptions, Amazon orders etc.