Steve Wozniak speaks on Right to Repair [video] • Hacker News Board

Re: Steve Wozniak speaks on Right to Repair [video]

#61

Post by chrisseaton » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 3:20 PM UTC

vbezhenar wrote: post #51

mensetmanusman wrote: post #31

Apple would be half the size it is if people could easily repair their devices. What’s good for the environment is not good for profits.

My anecdote: I bought Dell Latitude and there are instructions how to disassemble the entire laptop on the Dell website. I did not see circuit schematics, though I'm not skilled enough to make any use of it, but it's something at least. I easily upgraded RAM and installed SSD. That was one of the factors of choosing this specific laptop for me, I wonder how many people consider it. I had terrible experience with Appl…

But then you have to have a laptop that looks and feels and works like a Dell Latitude.

That fixability has a cost in ugliness and weight and usability.

No thanks.

Re: Steve Wozniak speaks on Right to Repair [video]

#62

Post by chrisseaton » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 3:23 PM UTC

forinti wrote: post #11

Envec83 wrote: post #2

Am I the only believing it should be a free market, where each company follows the strategy it prefers? Let the market decide if repairability is desired or not. If customers really want it, certainly there will be companies offering it. Much better to have millions voting with their money and purchases than a few bureaucrats deciding how they believe things should be.

Imagine a place where no lower bound on quality is established on anything. You'd have to spend all your time advocating, evaluating, fighting for everything important in your life: the quality of your housing, the quality of your children's education, the quality of your car and your consumer goods, and so on.

But imagine something you presumably don't care about - such as say the feng shui of housing.

Say the government started dictating minimum standards of feng shui, and costs went up because of it, and you couldn't have the house you wanted because it didn't match feng shui standards.

Wouldn't you say 'but I don't want feng shui - I don't care about feng shui'.

Re: Steve Wozniak speaks on Right to Repair [video]

#63

Post by MikeUt » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 3:35 PM UTC

tqwhite wrote: post #59

I was a young person during the tube era. My dad was one of those guys with a bag full of tubes. The reason he was carrying them around was that NOTHING WORKED. The 'right to repair' was actually, a horrible 'burden of repair'. It's great that it helped Woz made Apple but it was also an era of buggy whips whose passing I do not lament. I would not support anything that added a microgram to my iPhone or MacBook or giv…

> to support the tiny fraction of people who can do repairs.

And the massive fraction of people who can now choose who to hire for repairs. It is a lie to claim only repairmen are affected.

Re: Steve Wozniak speaks on Right to Repair [video]

#64

Post by farias0 » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 3:35 PM UTC

tqwhite wrote: post #59

I was a young person during the tube era. My dad was one of those guys with a bag full of tubes. The reason he was carrying them around was that NOTHING WORKED. The 'right to repair' was actually, a horrible 'burden of repair'. It's great that it helped Woz made Apple but it was also an era of buggy whips whose passing I do not lament. I would not support anything that added a microgram to my iPhone or MacBook or giv…

It's not supporting "the tiny fraction of people who can do repairs". It's supporting everyone who might choose to take it to a third party instead of Apple when it breaks -- be it for better price, better service, or even to force Apple to be competitive on both fronts. Hell, it's even supporting the very idea of fixable devices, as this arguably impacts not only post-sale support, but also the very design of said devices.

It's not black and white, we don't need to go full cyberpunk wild west to establish some level of control over our electronics.

Re: Steve Wozniak speaks on Right to Repair [video]

#65

Post by bengale » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 3:36 PM UTC

II2II wrote: post #58

nicoburns wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's partly this. It's also partly about restoring the kind of rights one is supposed to get under the first-sale doctrine: ownership over the thing that you have bought.

The right to repair has nothing to do with open source and it is probably best to avoid conflating it with open source. It is going to be difficult enough to pass legislation to enable the access to components and schematics, as well as to prevent the implementation of technical barriers intended to make independent repair (and modifications) illegal. The reason why we reached this abysmal state of affairs has more t…

The conflation of right to repair with other things might make the whole enterprise impossible. It's currently very difficult to claim support for something when the goalposts keep moving.

I'm very much in support of companies being required to provide schematics, where reasonable. Also I see no reason why they should be able to stop manufacturers selling parts to repair shops.

I don't think that forcing design choices, such as modular components, easily replaceable batteries, requiring certain ports and things like that are a good idea. These ideas should stand on their own, if there is a market for it then let people make that choice for themselves, including the downsides that come with it.

I think if right to repair can't get a handle on what's being advocated for then things like phones and laptops will be left out of any major legislation.

Re: Steve Wozniak speaks on Right to Repair [video]

#66

Post by bengale » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 3:39 PM UTC

dijit wrote: post #53

mensetmanusman wrote: post #31

Apple would be half the size it is if people could easily repair their devices. What’s good for the environment is not good for profits.

I'd like to see evidence supporting that. The reason _I_ buy apple products is because they actually fix my machine when I bring it in for repair and don't do what HP, Dell and ASUS used to do which is hide behind: "please resend", "works for us", "we've had it for 18 weeks and now the warranty period is over" stuff.

They also seem to be surprisingly long lived, every Macbook and iMac I've purchased in the last decade is still in use somewhere in my extended family. One or two have had batteries replaced by Apple, and one has had a new keyboard but they're all still chugging along.

Re: Steve Wozniak speaks on Right to Repair [video]

#67

Post by GuB-42 » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 3:41 PM UTC

MayeulC wrote: post #12

TL;DW: He's very supportive, and talks about how things used to be fixable and have plans included on paper, "open source". He says Apple II shipped with complete schematics and source code listings.

I am not surprised. I mean, that's the guy who signed a Hackintosh. He has always been the hacker in my view, when Jobs was the businessman.

Re: Steve Wozniak speaks on Right to Repair [video]

#68

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 3:42 PM UTC

Envec83 wrote: post #2

Am I the only believing it should be a free market, where each company follows the strategy it prefers? Let the market decide if repairability is desired or not. If customers really want it, certainly there will be companies offering it. Much better to have millions voting with their money and purchases than a few bureaucrats deciding how they believe things should be.

[deleted]

Re: Steve Wozniak speaks on Right to Repair [video]

#69

Post by indymike » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 3:45 PM UTC

tqwhite wrote: post #59

I was a young person during the tube era. My dad was one of those guys with a bag full of tubes. The reason he was carrying them around was that NOTHING WORKED. The 'right to repair' was actually, a horrible 'burden of repair'. It's great that it helped Woz made Apple but it was also an era of buggy whips whose passing I do not lament. I would not support anything that added a microgram to my iPhone or MacBook or giv…

> I would not support anything that added a microgram to my iPhone or MacBook or give up even one tiny feature to support the tiny fraction of people who can do repairs.

That is not what the right to repair is about. It is about allowing people who are not the manufacturer or blessed by the manufacturer do a repair.

Re: Steve Wozniak speaks on Right to Repair [video]

#70

Post by underseacables » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 3:52 PM UTC

I love Woz, but does he still retain any sway in the community? He has often spoke out in favor of things or against things but it doesn’t seem to really matter to the industry.