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US-Canada heatwave 'virtually impossible' without warming

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Re: US-Canada heatwave 'virtually impossible' without warming

#51

Post by Sebb767 »

akavel wrote: post #38
necrotic_comp wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I don't understand is what people who argue against climate change stand to gain. The argument for climate change is: "humans are polluting the planet and it's causing a change in the environment and will have a disastrous effect on the climate." The arguments I hear against climate change always seem to concede that humans are polluting the planet, but argue in different ways (natural cycle/not really happening…

IMO, because admitting that climate change is reality would in consequence require massive, expensive, and hugely uncomfortable changes in one's lifestyle. Plus, not uncommonly, becoming de facto socially ostracised in at least some (though possibly all) of one's social circles. Also, there's not even some concrete "ozone layer hole" you could point your finger at, but rather some vague: "Some, though not all [FUD wo…

Exactly this. Plus some perceived unfairness because people who do not care about the environment have an advantage over you and also a better lifestyle.

Re: US-Canada heatwave 'virtually impossible' without warming

#52

Post by JulianMorrison »

aww_dang wrote: post #34
aliasEli wrote: post #2

> beating the previous national high temperature mark by more than 4C in one go, as happened in Canada last week, is virtually unprecedented. This event should be a warning call to all people who believe that a global warming of only 2 degrees Celsius will be barely noticeable. One positive effect is that scientists have collected a lot of data that will help them improve climate models.

On the other hand, proponents of climate apocalypse frequently make a distinction between weather and climate.

There is a causal arrow from climate to weather. It just isn't as crude as "warm planet equals warm weather". It would be closer to the truth to say "warm planet equals more unsettled weather, averaging warmer over the large scale, but including unseasonal cold as (for example) wind patterns distort".

Re: US-Canada heatwave 'virtually impossible' without warming

#53

Post by golergka »

necrotic_comp wrote: post #11
chrisco255 wrote: post #4

Not only is it possible but the worst heat waves on record were experienced in the 1930s: https://www.weather.gov/arx/heat_jul36

What I don't understand is what people who argue against climate change stand to gain. The argument for climate change is: "humans are polluting the planet and it's causing a change in the environment and will have a disastrous effect on the climate." The arguments I hear against climate change always seem to concede that humans are polluting the planet, but argue in different ways (natural cycle/not really happening…

Because it would lead to hindering economic growth, especially in developing nations, more poverty, and more tyrannical governments.

And if your nation adopts those policies, and another one doesn't and increases, you're much worse off. It's basically a prisoner's dilemma on a geopolitical scale, and there's no single guaranteed strategy to win it.

Re: US-Canada heatwave 'virtually impossible' without warming

#54

Post by emerged »

necrotic_comp wrote: post #11
chrisco255 wrote: post #4

Not only is it possible but the worst heat waves on record were experienced in the 1930s: https://www.weather.gov/arx/heat_jul36

What I don't understand is what people who argue against climate change stand to gain. The argument for climate change is: "humans are polluting the planet and it's causing a change in the environment and will have a disastrous effect on the climate." The arguments I hear against climate change always seem to concede that humans are polluting the planet, but argue in different ways (natural cycle/not really happening…

The strongest argument IMO is that the largest polluters are countries like China who will simply do nothing making our economic sacrifices nearly meaningless.

Then the relative economic benefit of ignoring climate change will further pump up the economies of countries like China who will then pollute more and gain more power, etc.

I don’t know what the solution is, if humans are even socially/politically capable of a solution, but make no mistake this is how it would play out if the western nations were all to take drastic measures against climate change.

Ultimately, the issue is that it is a competitive advantage to ignore climate change (right up until it’s too late), and global competition dictates our social evolution.

We may need green tech that is so overwhelmingly cost efficient that nobody will ever want to pollute again.

Re: US-Canada heatwave 'virtually impossible' without warming

#55

Post by jazzyjackson »

jokoon wrote: post #23

I'm starting to think that governments and people will be unable to fight CO2 emissions for several reasons: * Reducing living standards is counter intuitive when consumerism is the norm, in France the Yellow Vests movement showed that it's very difficult to tax carbon if it punish poor people. Inequality and carbon emissions are deeply intertwined. * People will just consume, feel guilty, maybe take some individual…

IMO the focus on CO2 emissions is a distraction from the greater sin of ecosystem destruction. Science has a bias for finding single, measurable factors, and its easy to measure CO2 and the greenhouse effect is real.

But on the other hand, the atmosphere and oceans storing more energy is not strictly what's causing our problems, but rather the severity and unpredictability of the weather.

Charles Eisenstein's book "Climate - a new story" convinced me that biomass and large healthy ecosystems act as a buffer on weather, that forests change the atmosphere around them and attract rain fall, all kinds of complex interactions that we've taken for granted.

The way I see it, the more life we wipe off the planet, the closer Earth gets to a primordial version of itself, firestorms and all. It's not the case that Earth's weather just calmed down enough for life to survive, but that the increased complexity of a planet covered in plants has a homeostatic effect.

I think we have to be much more creative than 'reduce consumption', find a way to get the labor and energy of billions of people to go toward increasing biomass and biodiversity instead of merely harvesting it and taking the good weather for granted.

Re: US-Canada heatwave 'virtually impossible' without warming

#56

Post by sandworm101 »

JulianMorrison wrote: post #48
sgpl wrote: post #39

I've been cranking up my AC and adding ice to my water to combat the heat but I recently read an article about sea-life [0] boiling to death in their natural habitats (oceans, seas) which made me realize that animals in the wild increasingly don't have this option. It made me really sad to think about the fact that we'll probably see mass-extinction events (for animals, etc.) in the near future or at least within my…

It already is a mass extinction event, globally, by any historical standards. But yes, it could get worse.

>> But yes, it could get worse

It will. It is.

Re: US-Canada heatwave 'virtually impossible' without warming

#57

Post by bboylen »

necrotic_comp wrote: post #11
chrisco255 wrote: post #4

Not only is it possible but the worst heat waves on record were experienced in the 1930s: https://www.weather.gov/arx/heat_jul36

What I don't understand is what people who argue against climate change stand to gain. The argument for climate change is: "humans are polluting the planet and it's causing a change in the environment and will have a disastrous effect on the climate." The arguments I hear against climate change always seem to concede that humans are polluting the planet, but argue in different ways (natural cycle/not really happening…

People don't want the new normal to be like in California and New York where rolling blackouts are the new normal due to unreliable green energy

Re: US-Canada heatwave 'virtually impossible' without warming

#58

Post by pif »

jokoon wrote: post #23

I'm starting to think that governments and people will be unable to fight CO2 emissions for several reasons: * Reducing living standards is counter intuitive when consumerism is the norm, in France the Yellow Vests movement showed that it's very difficult to tax carbon if it punish poor people. Inequality and carbon emissions are deeply intertwined. * People will just consume, feel guilty, maybe take some individual…

I've been saying this for several years now: global warming is here to stay.

Let's stop wasting time talking about giving up comfort in the hope that maybe the whole world will follow and the 2° will maybe become 1.5°. Stop it!

Climate is changing: it's a fact, let's stop whining, let's accept it and especially let's face it.

The question must not be: "what can we all do do mitigate the problem?"

The question must be: "what can I do to enjoy life as much as possible within the current framework and without stealing from my neighbor?"

Re: US-Canada heatwave 'virtually impossible' without warming

#59

Post by sigzero »

necrotic_comp wrote: post #11
chrisco255 wrote: post #4

Not only is it possible but the worst heat waves on record were experienced in the 1930s: https://www.weather.gov/arx/heat_jul36

What I don't understand is what people who argue against climate change stand to gain. The argument for climate change is: "humans are polluting the planet and it's causing a change in the environment and will have a disastrous effect on the climate." The arguments I hear against climate change always seem to concede that humans are polluting the planet, but argue in different ways (natural cycle/not really happening…

Pointing out inaccuracies isn't "arguing against climate change" or at least it doesn't have to be.
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