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macOS extensions are moving away from the kernel

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Re: macOS extensions are moving away from the kernel

#131

Post by neilalexander »

jmull wrote: post #47
smolyeet wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

more common in enterprise environment, but vmware fusion, global protect, and lulu/little snitch come to mind from my experience. Big Sur still technically supports Kernel Extensions, and companies will wait until the last minute before giving in.

I checked my system... I have only a Cisco AnyConnect extension. I have VMware fusion running (latest version), so maybe they've finished the transition?

VMware Fusion uses the macOS Hypervisor.framework now, so it no longer needs extensions.

Re: macOS extensions are moving away from the kernel

#132

Post by oauea »

EricE wrote: post #119
spicybright wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apples been doing that for yeaaars, especially with mobile devices (not that that's news to you) Anecdote: I had an iPad pro I put in a drawer for a while. I had it synced to an apple account from my old job (used my corporate email for it). When I took it out after I moved jobs, it became permanently locked with no recourse because I didn't have access to the email anymore. And there was no way to factrory reset it,…

Device lock is hardly something unique to Apple devices. It's unfortunate you forgot to unlock it before you lost access to that email account, but all may not be lost - have you tried account recovery? https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204921 For anyone else reading this - take heed. It's better to ensure you can recover before you need to. Apple provides multiple ways to ensure you have access to an important Apple…

Sorry, not interested in hardware that turns into a coaster if I don't follow it's very obscure setup instructions. Hardware factory reset or no thanks.

Re: macOS extensions are moving away from the kernel

#133

Post by SlowRobotAhead »

pjmlp wrote: post #12
cpach wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cool! Very interesting development given how bad reputation microkernels had for a while. (I’m thinking of Linux vs Minix/Hurd.)

Since Android 8, Linux is a kind of pseudo-microkernel, as all drivers are required to be Treble based, and traditional Linux drivers are considered legacy on the platform. https://source.android.com/devices/architecture/hal-types The Switch (yes the games console) uses a microkernel. QNX an OS for human critical scenarios is a microkernel. Finally, when arguing Linux vs Minix/Hurd, think of the irony of running Linu…

> QNX an OS for human critical scenarios is a microkernel.

Hmm, Never thought about a stated OS focus like that. Off to look it up. Good mention

Re: macOS extensions are moving away from the kernel

#134

Post by spicybright »

duskwuff wrote: post #101
spicybright wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surprisingly not. You can't re-bind the FN key's function using normal settings. On a 2019 mac pro, catalina, btw, looking at Settings > Keyboard > Modifier Keys...

Possibly stupid question: are you using an Apple keyboard? The Fn key remapping doesn't show up for third-party keyboards, as those won't have a Fn key (or, at least, not one that's remappable in the same way).

Yeah, I'm using the built in keyboard on the laptop itself.

Re: macOS extensions are moving away from the kernel

#135

Post by beermonster »

EricE wrote: post #117
beermonster wrote: post #102

Does this limit the effectiveness of apps like LuLu and Little Snitch in any real way?

Nope - latest version of Little Snitch has already moved to user space: https://obdev.at/products/littlesnitch-big-sur/index.html

I’ll have a read. Was wondering if any capabilities are lost besides performance

Re: macOS extensions are moving away from the kernel

#136

Post by pjmlp »

MayeulC wrote: post #93
roblabla wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another example would be userspace network drivers that directly talk to the network card. Those tend to be much more performant than using the kernel driver due to avoiding the need to context switch from userspace to kernelspace.

Aren't we making userspace/kernel space communication a lot more efficient with io-uring, though? Likewise, eBPF allows userspace programs to perform some work inside kernel space to reduce syscalls. I wonder if io-uring won't be a starting point for a "microkernelization" of Linux. It seems really effective as a message-passing interface.

Look at Android' Project Treble, that is what Google has done, just with Android IPC instead of io-uring.

Re: macOS extensions are moving away from the kernel

#137

Post by pjmlp »

SlowRobotAhead wrote: post #133
pjmlp wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since Android 8, Linux is a kind of pseudo-microkernel, as all drivers are required to be Treble based, and traditional Linux drivers are considered legacy on the platform. https://source.android.com/devices/architecture/hal-types The Switch (yes the games console) uses a microkernel. QNX an OS for human critical scenarios is a microkernel. Finally, when arguing Linux vs Minix/Hurd, think of the irony of running Linu…

> QNX an OS for human critical scenarios is a microkernel. Hmm, Never thought about a stated OS focus like that. Off to look it up. Good mention

Search for high integrity computing, that is the industry term.

Re: macOS extensions are moving away from the kernel

#138

Post by tomduncalf »

DaiPlusPlus wrote: post #32
tomduncalf wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can’t comment on the internals of drivers etc as it’s not a domain I know much about, but I dabble with music production and can tell you that all my audio gear which requires drivers has been updated for Big Sur, which AFAIK is the new model. I’ve not noticed any change in performance at all, so I assume Apple have ensured the API covers the ground required for real time audio - it is one of their specialities as…

> it is one of their specialities as an OS/platform after all. Apple's been losing ground with creative-types across all industries and areas since their post-2000s peak: the major attitude-adjustment came with the reputational harm that came from the launch-and-downfall of the 2013 Mac Pro. As a wry zinger, I find it ironic that creative-types cannot express their creativity, and especially their individually by way…

Among the music makers, programmers and designers that I know, the vast majority still use Macs despite the annoyance of the 2016-19 laptop fiasco etc. I know one or two who have switched to Windows because they needed high performance machines and weren’t willing to pay Mac Pro prices, and a couple who tried and ended up switching back because they found the Windows experience inferior.

I don’t think I know anyone IRL who is worried about the Mac becoming locked down - iOS sure, but you can still basically do what you want on a Mac for most people.

The reality is that for most people the Mac is a relatively hassle free experience. You don’t need to worry about whether it has certain components that will affect audio performance etc. - my understanding is you still need to be careful with chipset etc. on PCs.

Re: macOS extensions are moving away from the kernel

#139

Post by robertlagrant »

pjmlp wrote: post #53
robertlagrant wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What a sensible world we live on nowadays This is basically calling me silly, just as you were calling the previous person ideological and a pedant. If you cut out this commentary that would be great.

You are the one playing the victim here, I am not attacking anyone.

I don't feel victimised; I didn't mention you attacking anyone. I'm just requesting removing the noise to boost the signal.

Re: macOS extensions are moving away from the kernel

#140

Post by qalmakka »

pram wrote: post #122
qalmakka wrote: post #51

To me, this sounds kinda like the following: - XNU was born from a fork of the Mach microkernel - When the microkernel hype simmered down due to them being way too slow for '90s machines, NeXT bolted on lots of chunks taken from BSD to speed up XNU - After 20+ years, computers are fast enough to run true microkernels, so Apple is bringing them back again So it's finally time for microkernels to shine again?

BSD was actually grafted into Mach early on, it wasn't something NeXT did.

Wasn't Mach a re-implementation of the original 4.2BSD completely based on IPC in place of syscalls? I distinctly recall some documents saying that XNU achieved much better performances than plain OSFMK thanks to NeXT reworking the BSD parts as components of the kernel instead of being binaries in user space, like in the case of plain Mach.
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