Live data from Hacker News

Open letter: Ban surveillance-based advertising

vivaldi.com

201–210 of 271 posts

Re: Open letter: Ban surveillance-based advertising

#201
post #143
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Force companies who leak personal data to pay reasonable damages to all the individuals involved Companies like Google and Facebook already leak. Proof: start an ad campaign on e.g. Facebook targeted at people who have trait X, but sell a product Y not related to X. For people who click on the ad and buy your product Y, you now know they have trait X. And you can now also link that to their address info.

Run an ad campaign in a magazine dedicated to a sensitive topic, selling something by mail-order. For people who write to you and buy your product, now you know they are interested in that sensitive topic. (Disclosure: I work on ads at Google, speaking only for myself)

True. Google or Facebook's ability to obtain, analyze, cross-reference, retain and leverage this type of information makes them billions of times more powerful than a small company selling gardening tools, however.

Re: Open letter: Ban surveillance-based advertising

#202
post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a few actors can obtain competitive advantages by collecting data from across websites... This is going away: all the major browsers have said they are going to block cross-site tracking. (Disclosure: I work on ads at Google, speaking only for myself)

Nobody needs cookies to track users cross-site. Cookies are just convenient.

All the browsers have said that they consider general-purpose cross-site tracking to be deprecated, not just cookies. They are working on removing other forms of linking users across sites, including the browser cache, link decoration, and fingerprinting.

Re: Open letter: Ban surveillance-based advertising

#203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I don't think our opinions diverge too much on that. My ideal world wouldn't feature much of either of them—I think well-marked, in some standard and easy-to-spot way, ads in publications aren't so terrible, for instance, provided it's made clear up-front, say with some kind of cigarette-box style notice or warning, that there are ads in it. Though, again, if paid advertising just went away, in all forms, entir…

I know we're comparing relative evils here, but that's interesting. I think my main concerns with surveillance are the chilling effects it has on those who would break the law for ethical reasons. But ultimately I think the tangible negative effects that surveillance has on most people are indirect. That's not to say they aren't important. But as important as advertising? Advertising causes a great deal of surveillan…

On top of that, ads stimulate overconsumption.

Also, they distort the free market (not the best product wins, but the one with the biggest advertising budget)

And they often target young children.

The only reason ads exist is because countries measure the success of their economies by how much is consumed.

Re: Open letter: Ban surveillance-based advertising

#204
post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a few actors can obtain competitive advantages by collecting data from across websites... This is going away: all the major browsers have said they are going to block cross-site tracking. (Disclosure: I work on ads at Google, speaking only for myself)

The browsers intent may be to remove cross-site tracking, but we all know that Google Ads will still follow people around the web through latent signals (even if wrapped in something like FLOC), and other parties like KISSmetrics will continue the fingerprinting cat and mouse game.

> Google Ads will still follow people around the web through latent signals

I'm not sure what you mean by this?

Google Ads has committed "once third-party cookies are phased out, we will not build alternate identifiers to track individuals as they browse across the web, nor will we use them in our products." -- https://blog.google/products/ads-commerce/a-more-privacy-fir...

> even if wrapped in something like FLOC

FLoC doesn't allow "a few actors [to] obtain competitive advantages by collecting data from across websites" since everyone sees the same number of identifying cohort bits.

> other parties like KISSmetrics will continue the fingerprinting cat and mouse game

Historically, the TOR browser was pretty much the only one that took fingerprinting prevention seriously, but it's now a substantial focus for Safari/Firefox/Chrome. I do think fingerprinting groups will continue to have things that work when third-party cookies go away, but I don't expect it to persist that long after? I also would not be surprised to see a regulation here, since I (not a lawyer) don't think fingerprinting is compatible with the GDPR or the other regulations it's inspiring around the world.

(Still speaking only for myself)

Re: Open letter: Ban surveillance-based advertising

#205
post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a few actors can obtain competitive advantages by collecting data from across websites... This is going away: all the major browsers have said they are going to block cross-site tracking. (Disclosure: I work on ads at Google, speaking only for myself)

The browsers intent may be to remove cross-site tracking, but we all know that Google Ads will still follow people around the web through latent signals (even if wrapped in something like FLOC), and other parties like KISSmetrics will continue the fingerprinting cat and mouse game.

Yes, FLOC and similar technologies, are another way to track users, but this time in the browser. We really do not see that as being any better. In many ways it is really worse.

https://vivaldi.com/blog/no-google-vivaldi-users-will-not-ge...

Re: Open letter: Ban surveillance-based advertising

#206
post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The browsers intent may be to remove cross-site tracking, but we all know that Google Ads will still follow people around the web through latent signals (even if wrapped in something like FLOC), and other parties like KISSmetrics will continue the fingerprinting cat and mouse game.

> Google Ads will still follow people around the web through latent signals I'm not sure what you mean by this? Google Ads has committed "once third-party cookies are phased out, we will not build alternate identifiers to track individuals as they browse across the web, nor will we use them in our products." -- https://blog.google/products/ads-commerce/a-more-privacy-fir... > even if wrapped in something like FLOC FL…

The point is the FLOC is surveillance as well. You are still profiling users. This has got to stop.

https://vivaldi.com/blog/no-google-vivaldi-users-will-not-ge...

Re: Open letter: Ban surveillance-based advertising

#207
post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody needs cookies to track users cross-site. Cookies are just convenient.

All the browsers have said that they consider general-purpose cross-site tracking to be deprecated, not just cookies. They are working on removing other forms of linking users across sites, including the browser cache, link decoration, and fingerprinting.

And some of them, such as Google, are working on FLOC... This has got to stop now.

Re: Open letter: Ban surveillance-based advertising

#208
post #165

Would any of the people who downvoted my post[1] without comment care to explain why? [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27761401 EDIT: Didn't think so.

It's an unworkable idea. What is an ad, exactly? You cite Consumer Reports as a model - they have affiliate links on their reviews. Is that an ad? Is a sponsored social media post? A celebrity endorsement? Free products given to athletes in the hopes that they will be seen using it? Logos on clothing? Is the standard just "I know it when I see it"? Also (in the US) it almost certain runs afoul of the First Amendment.

> What is an ad, exactly? You cite Consumer Reports as a model - they have affiliate links on their reviews. Is that an ad?

I agree that Consumer Reports does include some advertising, but it's not necessary for their business model to work--consumer reports predated the internet by over 50 years, so it certainly predated affiliate links. At least at some points their primary source of income was subscriptions, and judging by how hard it is to get at most of their reviews without a subscription, that continues to be a significant revenue stream for them.

> Is a sponsored social media post? A celebrity endorsement? Free products given to athletes in the hopes that they will be seen using it? Logos on clothing? Is the standard just "I know it when I see it"?

While I agree that we need a clear definition of an ad to encode this to law, I don't buy this feigned confusion as a valid argument that we can't or shouldn't legislate against ads. Obviously we need to work out a clearer definition than "I know it when I see it" to legislate effectively, but it's absurd to claim that I need to present a fully-written legal code in order to present a valid opinion on Hacker News.

We may disagree about free products given to athletes in the hopes that they'll be seen wearing them, for example. But if you claim not to know that a 30 second video clip in the middle of your TV show telling you that you should drink Budweiser to pick up chicks is both an ad and a harmful lie, you're not arguing in good faith. This argument is just throwing FUD about implementation details: you're not responding in any way to my statement of the problem, or presenting any fundamental criticism of my proposed solution.

The first implementation of this law wouldn't be perfect. We'd need to iterate on it. But even a ban against a very narrow definition of ads would be extremely beneficial.

Since you haven't even disagreed with my statement of the problem, perhaps you agree that advertising is bad, and would like to draft some sample legislation that solves that problem to your satisfaction?

> Also (in the US) it almost certain runs afoul of the First Amendment.

While current judicial precedent defines corporations as people, that's clearly a terrible mistake. Corporations aren't people and as such the first amendment does not apply to them. Yes, I know, there's some grey area where restricting the rights of corporations might restrict the rights of individuals: remember what I said about implementation details?

Overturning judicial precedent is a legal hurdle to get over to get rid of advertising, but it isn't a logical problem with the solution. Just because something is difficult to do doesn't mean it's not worth doing.

Re: Open letter: Ban surveillance-based advertising

#209
post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's an unworkable idea. What is an ad, exactly? You cite Consumer Reports as a model - they have affiliate links on their reviews. Is that an ad? Is a sponsored social media post? A celebrity endorsement? Free products given to athletes in the hopes that they will be seen using it? Logos on clothing? Is the standard just "I know it when I see it"? Also (in the US) it almost certain runs afoul of the First Amendment.

> What is an ad, exactly? You cite Consumer Reports as a model - they have affiliate links on their reviews. Is that an ad? I agree that Consumer Reports does include some advertising, but it's not necessary for their business model to work--consumer reports predated the internet by over 50 years, so it certainly predated affiliate links. At least at some points their primary source of income was subscriptions, and j…

> But if you claim not to know that a 30 second video clip in the middle of your TV show...

The obvious cases are not what make this unworkable, it's the edges. Is a paid product placement an ad? Is simply furnishing clothes for the actors to wear on set an ad? Your original suggestion was that this letter didn't go far enough, and that we need to ban advertising altogether. But it actually seems like what you actually mean is that some additional forms of ads you find objectionable should be banned.

I personally have no problem with ads if it means I don't have to pay for stuff with money. But you asked why people downvoted you, and that was my answer.

Re: Open letter: Ban surveillance-based advertising

#210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So will Facebook (and several others) if you take no steps of your own to block them. It's an escalating war of cat and mouse. You'll block them, they'll find a new way around it, you'll block them some more, they'll find another way. Eventually the only answer will be to shut down the Internet because it's become just too broken to use anymore.

The simpler answer is to just ban it. The law doesn't need to be technically detailed or envision every single technological adaptation: it just needs to be sufficient for a judge to be able to recognise it when a prosecutor describes it and a defence lawyer attempts to pull the wool over their eyes. It needs to be focused on outcomes. Once banned, Google and Facebook will submit. They will attempt to lobby against t…

I'm all for big game hunting but taking down Google would be a gutpunch to every Gmail user ever
Post reply on HN