Why I will never pursue cheating again • Hacker News Board

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#361

Post by scott_s » Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 1:44 PM UTC

nyustern wrote: post #244

Panos wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me start by indicating some logical flaws in the timing of the events: The office hours for the class were from 12.30 to 1.30, Monday and Wednesday. The class was starting at 2pm. According to your account, I showed up at 1pm, being 30 mins "late". Then the first student came in at 1pm and came out at 1.20pm? Then it took me another 50 minutes while I was running around? So I came to talk to you at 2.10pm, when I…

First off, many of the details you cited are inaccurate. However, its pointless to argue over such things. I was not aware of your health condition, but given the pattern of treatment given to me and a handful of others, I was left to assume you were acting as usual. Anyway, my post was to make you aware of a few other reasons as to why you received a low evaluation score. Blaming the students wholly is unjust and th…

but given the pattern of treatment given to me and a handful of others, I was left to assume you were acting as usual

Perhaps much of the "pattern of treatment" that you observed could be equally explained? When we interact with someone in a bad mood, we tend to assume it's because of us, but it's often likely to be external factors. Having taught before, and held office hours, I can tell you how absolutely exhausting it can be. Maintaining a fair demeanor gets increasingly more difficult.

Also consider how a professor feels when meeting students outside of office hours, and the student has not made a prior appointment. How would you feel if the professor showed up at your home and said they had to hold lecture now? It's obviously not the same thing, but it may give you an indication of how it feels.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#362

Post by brudgers » Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 1:45 PM UTC

ZachPruckowski wrote: post #194

stonemetal wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I don't get is why he spent all that time on it. Catch someone cheating turn them in, no need for the in office histrionics, or long winded lectures about how to site sources.

Because the cost of being wrong[1] or of leaving doubt of guilt could well be a lawsuit or administrative action. A student who gets expelled or suspended for cheating loses a lot of money and has a very, very serious black mark that'll follow them for years. This (a) is not something you want to inflict incorrectly[1], and (b) makes the unconfessed student desperate enough to lash out in a lot of ways. [1] - If your…

I suspect that, a student who gets expelled for cheating has certainly gone through administrative due process well beyond the professor's office, and had ample opportunity to explain the 99% match to uncited sources.

By your logic, one could make the case that academic standards should never be upheld - 700 submissions is arbitrary and could just as easily be 7000 or 7,000,000 and the same rationale would apply.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#363

Post by scott_s » Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 1:49 PM UTC

[deleted] wrote: post #357

gizmo wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do have a problem with that. But in this case the professor said he went to great lengths to avoid false positives and only took action against those students who confessed after being confronted with a mountain of evidence. In this case the professor stated that collaboration was absolutely prohibited. Cite: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2776039

[deleted]

If you look at his post carefully, you'll notice he "collaborated" with another student. He knew he broke the rules, and he was terrified he would get caught. He did not.

Personally, I think students should be able to discuss such assignments with each other, but I don't think you've accurately characterized the situation.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#364

Post by scott_s » Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 1:51 PM UTC

brudgers wrote: post #358

kd1220 wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

scott_s is right. Enforcing cheating policies isn't as impersonal as enforcing parking laws. You can't just leave a citation behind and let the students and administration handle it. The professor will be involved. There's also the aspect of a student being falsely accused of cheating. I was unfortunate enough to have experienced this during my college career. A fellow student, whom I didn't know outside of class, co…

What your case shows is that the due process worked. If the professor had called you into the office and said, "Instead of handing this over to the honor court, I am going to deduct 30% from your score," that would have been far more unfair and built far more ill will. To put it another way, a professor should focus on teaching and let those tasked with investigating cheating and listening to excuses sort it out. And…

Professors often are involved in the official process. Often they have to provide evidence at a hearing. They don't just throw the case over the administrator wall.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#365

Post by specialist » Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 1:58 PM UTC

Panos wrote: post #224

nyustern wrote: post #189

Hi Panos. I was actually a student in your class last fall semester. To alleviate any doubt you may have, the class was known as “Info Tech,” and you had two sessions on Mondays and Wednesdays (2-3:15, 3:30-4:45 pm) in KMEC. Now I have a couple of problems with your post. Firstly, you attribute your lower evaluation rating of 5.3 for last fall semester solely to your lower tolerance of cheating. However, there is som…

Let me start by indicating some logical flaws in the timing of the events: The office hours for the class were from 12.30 to 1.30, Monday and Wednesday. The class was starting at 2pm. According to your account, I showed up at 1pm, being 30 mins "late". Then the first student came in at 1pm and came out at 1.20pm? Then it took me another 50 minutes while I was running around? So I came to talk to you at 2.10pm, when I…

> About the issue of a "true capitalist," yes I am a libertarian at heart. And I do believe that people respond to incentives.

Libertarian, maximum personal liberty. If you were a libertarian, you wouldn't care about the cheating. Let the little bastards screw themselves.

Libertarian doctrine (such as it is) says nothing about incentives.

Getting worked up about the cheating, you assume society (or at least your class room) should be merit-based. Pretty much the opposite of libertarianism.

A clever teacher would figure out a way for students to police each other. I've seen it work to great effect. No one grades harder than a peer.

Edit: I was being a dick, comment about whining removed.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#366

Post by demallien » Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 2:10 PM UTC

astine wrote: post #360

demallien wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is only true if you think that good employers are hiring on the basis of grades. You know what, I've hired a half dozen or so programmers, and I've done interviews with about 100, and not once have I ever looked at their grades or their faculty. I don't think I'm unusual in that respect. I think employers using grades as a basis for a hiring decision is every bit as silly as professors worrying about their stude…

You're failing to think things through. Employers only base their hiring decisions on grades for recent graduates, but nearly all employers base their hiring decision on the student's degree and the institution it comes from. Good grades help with that. There is also the issue of graduate school which certainly does take grades into account.

You're failing to think things through

Really?

Employers only base their hiring decisions on grades for recent graduates, but nearly all employers base their hiring decision on the student's degree and the institution it comes from.

False, I am a walking talking counter-example, but it's the same for all of the companies at which I have sat on recruitment interview boards, and also true for every company that has ever hired me. Nobody has ever requested to see my University transcripts (in fact I've only had one employer even verify that I have a degree). Grades just aren't a consideration. Your ability to respond to questions that we ask, your history of code for open source projects, sample code that you present, your overall demeanour/character - these things are looked at very closely.

I'm curious as to how you explain the very best tech employers recruiting before students have even graduated? Whilst I agree that there are employers out there that do care about grades, the people that are actually the most able to honestly obtain good grades are probably not terribly interested in working for them. I know I wasn't.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#367

Post by pnathan » Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 2:14 PM UTC

kahawe wrote: post #125

pnathan wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is totally a question of honor. It is utterly dishonorable to cheat, and egregiously so at the levels described in the aforementioned blog. The goal of the scholastic experience is so that you, the student, learns something. If the school turns out people who didn't learn, they are producing worthlessness. It is a lie to say that you have a degree, when you really have a collection of credits that you cheated thro…

You are exaggerating by 200% and leading it ad absurdum. "Cheating" for me means getting one or two hints at an exam and with the exam situation being what it is, those hints typically only really help to jog your memory if you did study. It does not mean downright plagiarizing your thesis and 90% of your studies. But US Americans seem to be offended even at the idea of getting or sharing a single hint during an exam…

No.

I assure you, what you describe is considered cheating, but the cheating that usually takes place is far more comprehensive.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#368

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 2:21 PM UTC

[deleted] wrote: post #357

gizmo wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do have a problem with that. But in this case the professor said he went to great lengths to avoid false positives and only took action against those students who confessed after being confronted with a mountain of evidence. In this case the professor stated that collaboration was absolutely prohibited. Cite: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2776039

[deleted]

[deleted]

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#369

Post by Panos » Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 2:24 PM UTC

specialist wrote: post #365

Panos wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me start by indicating some logical flaws in the timing of the events: The office hours for the class were from 12.30 to 1.30, Monday and Wednesday. The class was starting at 2pm. According to your account, I showed up at 1pm, being 30 mins "late". Then the first student came in at 1pm and came out at 1.20pm? Then it took me another 50 minutes while I was running around? So I came to talk to you at 2.10pm, when I…

> About the issue of a "true capitalist," yes I am a libertarian at heart. And I do believe that people respond to incentives. Libertarian, maximum personal liberty. If you were a libertarian, you wouldn't care about the cheating. Let the little bastards screw themselves. Libertarian doctrine (such as it is) says nothing about incentives. Getting worked up about the cheating, you assume society (or at least your clas…

"A clever teacher would figure out a way for students to police each other. I've seen it work to great effect. No one grades harder than a peer."

I could not agree with you more. This assignment, in which students get to teach "emerging technologies" to each other, and grade each other, is the highlight of my class. The whole point that I wanted to make with this post is that cheating is something that needs to be structurally avoided, not something to be detected and penalized.

Btw, touché on the libertarian point.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#370

Post by brianleb » Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 2:28 PM UTC

tripzilch wrote: post #320

Panos wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again: read the article until the end. I do not blame the students. Students respond to incentives. If I give them opportunities to cheat and remain undetected, they will cheat. I do the same as a human. If I were getting a 50% increase in my salary for detecting cheating so aggressively, next year I would have tried to detect cheating even when there is none. What I truly blame in the article is the structure of the…

> If I were getting a 50% increase in my salary for detecting cheating so aggressively, next year I would have tried to detect cheating even when there is none. Wow. While a 50% salary increase is quite substantial, admitting that you'd hypothetically frame your students in order to get it is ... well it's definitely below cheating in my book.

He's not saying he would frame students - he's acknowledging that he would respond to the incentive by following it aggressively. This is how humans act. You're just reading into this because you have a negative opinion of the guy.