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What really happened to Jack Ma?

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Re: What really happened to Jack Ma?

#131

Post by roenxi »

pydry wrote: post #114
roenxi wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you rather billionaires exerting "unchecked power" or party officials exerting actual, unchecked, power? Because the unchecked power of the typical billionaire couldn't achieve what is being done to Jack Ma.

I'm indifferent. Honestly I think I'd rather see elites fighting among themselves than select a particular brand of unchecked unaccountable power to be lorded over me. Would you prefer to live under Kim Jong Il or Kim Jong Un?

The Kim family don't draw any of their power from being billionaires. If there was a choice between someone like Jack Ma running the show or the North Korean Kim family ... Jack Ma is a much better bet.

Re: What really happened to Jack Ma?

#132

Post by [deleted] »

ca01an wrote: post #38
genmud wrote: post #5

One thing that you learn quickly when traveling the world is how easily one can go from having a good time with your friends, to being in a shitty prison without food, running water or a phone to let your family know if you are dead or alive. I have friends travel to interesting places during times of (relative) stability. To paraphrase one of the guys that I know: "When you travel in some of these places, you exist…

Most people are more likely to end up in prison in the USA than they are in China

[deleted]

Re: What really happened to Jack Ma?

#133

Post by lazide »

cheaprentalyeti wrote: post #127
arvigeus wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think CCP would throw away billions of worth just because they dislike the man. Unlike the west, China is allowed to meddle into the affairs of any company, so it's not hard to imagine they are just profiting from him, like a shadow takeover. This explains why he is shown around from time to time: to calm down the investors. At some point this circus would be over, and the companies will collapse by themselve…

The CCP makes a trillion dollars a year off of the current status quo, they can afford to throw away billions as long as the trillion keeps coming in.

And the iron grip they need to maintain control on the trillions inbound means they regularly need to stomp on the source of a few 10’s of billions here and there. This is just a slightly larger, and significantly more externally visible version of what they do on the regular - and must - to keep control.

Re: What really happened to Jack Ma?

#134

Post by rswail »

Bojui wrote: post #25
Traster wrote: post #18

I think this, in combination with the author's previous article about the moves the CCP have made on Ma's business make it pretty clear what is happening. Ma is being held whilst his businesses are dismantled. Ant is being turned into a traditional bank, Alibaba is being attacked from several directions, Ma's university (a clear source of soft power) is being shut down. When you then ask where Ma is I would say it's…

What happens if Xi kicks the can tomorrow? How smooth is the transition going to be? China is so massive I cant understand how they dont have multiple power centers bumping into each other all the time.

They do, if you remember a while back the head of Shanghai area was prosecuted and brought down on corruption charges, that consolidated power in current leadership because he was an alternate center.

Re: What really happened to Jack Ma?

#135

Post by ralusek »

permo-w wrote: post #120
koonsolo wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would say it's plain communism: nothing is yours, the state owns everything (including your life). But I guess the difference between crown and communism is best explained in Animal Farm.

It’s just authoritarianism

Authoritarianism is possible with most types of government, but is necessary for communism. Most communists are well aware of the fact that an economic system with strict objectives requires a very powerful mechanism in order to accomplish this, and most of those understand that this mechanism is an authoritarian state, but there are obviously the delusional few that refer to the state by any other name (syndicates, guilds).

China, however, is not communist. China is fascist.

> Fascism: authoritarian ultranationalism characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and strong regimentation of society and of the economy

Re: What really happened to Jack Ma?

#136

Post by coldtea »

ralusek wrote: post #135
permo-w wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s just authoritarianism

Authoritarianism is possible with most types of government, but is necessary for communism. Most communists are well aware of the fact that an economic system with strict objectives requires a very powerful mechanism in order to accomplish this, and most of those understand that this mechanism is an authoritarian state, but there are obviously the delusional few that refer to the state by any other name (syndicates,…

>Authoritarianism is possible with most types of government, but is necessary for communism.

Only if the people aren't onboard. The whole idea of communism is with people being onboard (and running soviets, worker councils, etc).

Some not being onboard is OK - communism is about majority rule, not what some person likes or dislikes. In that, it's like any other system. A modern democracy also doesn't care if somebody likes to sell heroin freely, or whether they'd rather have a King.

Re: What really happened to Jack Ma?

#137

Post by mc32 »

Jochim wrote: post #74
genmud wrote: post #5

One thing that you learn quickly when traveling the world is how easily one can go from having a good time with your friends, to being in a shitty prison without food, running water or a phone to let your family know if you are dead or alive. I have friends travel to interesting places during times of (relative) stability. To paraphrase one of the guys that I know: "When you travel in some of these places, you exist…

It's kind of intriguing to me because, as a member of a western society, I think we place largely the same expectations on people to conform, the only difference is in how the enforcement is applied. In many countries, cities, and neighbourhoods in "the west" if you aren't white you experience exactly the kind of insecurity you describe elsewhere. There are plenty of incidents where non-white residents are arrested w…

Of this were a big problem in the west, we’d see a pause in immigration to the west.

People learn fast if things are not good. If you’re targeted, if you’re harassed.

I don’t mean people who have very little choice (their home countries are so bad they have to leave), but I mean middle class families who have alternatives. They still choose the west as a destination by choice.

I think this is a reasonable proxy indicating life isn’t bad for foreigners immigrating to the west. If it were bad, they’d choose to stay home or a neighboring country that has similar culture.

Also, regarding travel. Most people experience their travel to other countries as middle class visitors, not as lower class visitors. Take someone from a first world country who didn't go beyond high school who earns <$25,000 and put them in one of these places and see how far their skills take them.

Re: What really happened to Jack Ma?

#138

Post by canadianfella »

Traster wrote: post #18

I think this, in combination with the author's previous article about the moves the CCP have made on Ma's business make it pretty clear what is happening. Ma is being held whilst his businesses are dismantled. Ant is being turned into a traditional bank, Alibaba is being attacked from several directions, Ma's university (a clear source of soft power) is being shut down. When you then ask where Ma is I would say it's…

Why do people say “whilst”?

Re: What really happened to Jack Ma?

#139

Post by janto »

ralusek wrote: post #135
permo-w wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s just authoritarianism

Authoritarianism is possible with most types of government, but is necessary for communism. Most communists are well aware of the fact that an economic system with strict objectives requires a very powerful mechanism in order to accomplish this, and most of those understand that this mechanism is an authoritarian state, but there are obviously the delusional few that refer to the state by any other name (syndicates,…

I agree with everything you said, except for China not being communist.

The CCP's take is "Mao was 70% right" and officially identifies as communist. Its stated end goal is a communist society. It is in service of this goal that they are taking a capitalistic / globalization route to expanding their Lebensraum. Whether CCP = China I guess is another discussion, but I don't have a strong view there.

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