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Open letter: Ban surveillance-based advertising

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Re: Open letter: Ban surveillance-based advertising

#81

I think there's a simpler way to achieve this. Force companies who leak personal data to pay reasonable damages to all the individuals involved, on the scale of 10-100 dollars, depending on how much personal info has been leaked. That would make businesses very quickly reassess how much data they need to keep, and how careful they need to be with it, without requiring any really radical legislation.

Yeah, rather than targeting advertising I'd prefer to get to the actual point, and target mass surveillance and collection of huge troves of personal data no matter the purpose.

Ban monetizing data (no selling, no pay-for-access, no derived products) and make leaks guaranteed to be expensive, so companies only keep what they have to to operate, with some large multiplier attached to the leak fine if it was related to banned activities.

Done.

The advertising is a symptom, it's not the disease.

Re: Open letter: Ban surveillance-based advertising

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've read your other replies to this thread and your argument does not seem to be made in good faith. This whole thread is about surveillance based advertising being bad. In no way is using an IP address in a firewall a form of surveillance. It isn't. The IP address isn't being associated with any other data, it's just some numbers floating in space, disconnected from any human being. There is no association with tha…

>your argument does not seem to be made in good faith I'm not exactly sure what this means. I used to be all for total privacy, but I found that future to not be sustainable. Perhaps I'm just jaded, but privacy just gets in the way. >This whole thread is about surveillance based advertising being bad. Well this part of the thread isn't. It's talking about how surveillance improves services by allowing them to deal wi…

I used to be all for total privacy, but I found that future to not be sustainable. Perhaps I'm just jaded, but privacy just gets in the way.

That's not your decision, I decide what matters to me, whether I want my privacy or this nebulous sustainability, whatever this is suppose to be.

Wrong. I am using your IP as part of a scheme to fingerprint you. I want my rate limit to limit each person separately. An IP address is just a somewhat decent way to approximate that.

Then let me turn this around, if using my IP address in this scenario is surveillance, then don't do it. If it is necessary, then ask me for permission, can we use your IP address to fight off attacks and ensure the availability of our website or do you prefer that the website might not always be available due to attacks? And the same applies if you want to rate limit all users, offer the choice between not using your website or opting in for IP based rate limiting. It's that easy.

Re: Open letter: Ban surveillance-based advertising

#83

Instead of arguing what current business models that would break, I think we should take a step back and ask: What legal and moral basis warrants "surveillance-based advertising"? The premise of GDPR in the EU has been that "surveillance-based advertising" needs to be balanced with user rights. If we come to the conclusion that this balance cannot be achieved (e.g. because users are not savvy enough to safeguard thei…

Also, what old business models might return (like newspaper and other content based advertising) and what new business models might emerge.

Re: Open letter: Ban surveillance-based advertising

#84
post #56

Do we have a good proposed legal definition of surveillance-based advertising?

I will employ a spy/cop to follow you everywhere and log everything you do in detail, would you consider it a surveillance? Of course, he will refrain from listening to you talking and won't enter your home. But everywhere else he will follow you at a distance. This is essentially what is going on in the internet. Metadata collection = Surveillance.

The analogy breaks at the point "won't enter your home". Current surveillance tech does exactly the analogous of that. It's rather like having a cop sitting at home pinky-promising not to listen or storing any conversation.

Maybe it's even worse. There are third-party analytics tools which send out any key-stroke you do, even if you don't submit any form.

It has become the new normal. Take todays article in Ars Technica on Audacity (https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/07/no-open-source-audac...). The author has no complaint about the fact that a tool for local editing of audio files reaches out to the internet to send data about the user and seemingly defends this on grounds that it is opt-in. That's fine but that code is needlessly there. There's no reason whatsoever for it. And I am tired of being told that surveillance is for my benefit. No, it's not. It's solely for the benefit of the surveillor.

Re: Open letter: Ban surveillance-based advertising

#85

I think there's a simpler way to achieve this. Force companies who leak personal data to pay reasonable damages to all the individuals involved, on the scale of 10-100 dollars, depending on how much personal info has been leaked. That would make businesses very quickly reassess how much data they need to keep, and how careful they need to be with it, without requiring any really radical legislation.

I don't think that's gonna cut it, but definitely on the right track. Its going to require some kind of legislation, or an insurance requirement that renders the insurers as de-facto regulators. This is still crazy hard due to the possibility of regulatory arbitrage, just open shop in Anguilla or wherever.

Without the auditing, compliance, and domain experts to verify and implement this, its going to be extremely hard to create and levy these penalties in any meaningful way. Using (legally) vague terms like "leak" "personal" "data" and "involved", a quick trip to the local courtroom will obviate a lot of the fines for well connected C-execs and legal teams.

Data integrity needs to be baked into the equation from the start. Until it is a business requirement to ensure proper system architecture practices, data integrity, and auditing, I don't see a snowball's chance of reaching sanity. Really, we've only barely defined the problem. Businesses have compliance departments that are totally subservient to business needs and would much rather resort to gaslighting stakeholders with silver-bullet checkbox security technology processes shaded in at the board room.

On the other side, we are now ushering in a fascinating golden age of the security rodeo. There is astonishing growth in this industry, enjoy unending contracts for Red and Blue alike. It could soon really begin to look like a Gibson novel.

Re: Open letter: Ban surveillance-based advertising

#86
Frankly, I don't think this goes far enough: "Ban advertising" would be better.

Almost every problem with the internet right now is caused by advertising if you dig through the chain of causality. From social media patterns that addict you to conflict and conspiracy, to popups, adware and spam, to constant attacks on our attention even when we're driving and could literally kill someone with inattention, to spreading dissatisfaction, fear, and poor financial advice, advertising is the root of much evil. And at its core, advertising is just never a good thing, in any context.

Proponents of advertising will say, "How do people find out about products and services?" but advertising is an extremely poor answer to that question: there's an inherent conflict of interest when the people selling a product are the primary source of information about the product. In the worst case, this leads to advertisers just lying to consumers and manipulating people's emotion. In the very best case, advertisers present information only about their own product, which doesn't allow consumers to make educated decisions--it's arguably not lying but the effect is the same. You might say, "Why would advertisers be obligated to provide information about competitors?" and you're right, they aren't, but we aren't trying to establish blame or responsibility here, we're trying to find a solution that's good for consumers, and advertising just isn't that.

A better solution is independent review sites. Consumer Reports[1] is a paid service, so you aren't the product. More specialized sites exist for all sorts of product areas: I'm a rock climber, and when I want a new piece of rock climbing gear, the first places I look at are Outdoor Gear Lab[2] and Weigh My Rack [3]. There's Labdoor[4] for supplements, Psychology Today[5] for therapists, WireCutter[6] for electronics, etc. But even here advertising has poisoned the water: many of these sites receive compensation from sellers, not from buyers, which has resulted in some dark patterns. It's not a perfect solution, but it would work a lot better if advertising were banned, and these conflicts of interest were removed.

Another solution is simpler and older, and it's exactly what I was doing in my previous post: word-of-mouth. That's arguably one of the best solutions, because while it's low-bandwidth, it's high fidelity: people don't go out of their way to promote a product unless it was actually quite good for them.

The other thing proponents of advertising will say is that advertising is necessary to fund existing sites, particularly content sites. On Hacker News, this often comes from someone who makes their money from advertising, directly or indirectly.

The thing is, the idea that people only produce content or software when it's profitable to do so reflects a very narrow view of the world. It's just not true. I'm old enough to remember the internet of the 90s, and in that time the internet was full of resources which were simply given away for free without advertising, which I'll refer to roughly as "old internet". Many old internet resources have yet to be reproduced in the new internet: Sheldon Brown's page[7] is still the best resource on bikes (the advertising was added after his death). Erowid[8] remains the most comprehensive resource on drugs. Sites like Wikipedia have somewhat drunk the advertising poison--and were better before.

And that leads me to my third reason advertising should be banned: it's infectious. Advertising is Scott Alexander's Moloch[9]--if one entity does it, then all their competitors have to do it in order to compete. The entire purpose of the free market is supposedly that it results in the best outcomes, but this is clearly a hack that prevents that from happening: we want companies to compete by producing the best goods and services at the lowest cost, but when you allow advertising, companies can (and do) compete by manipulating consumers into buying inferior goods at higher costs. Advertising is an anticompetitive business practice that undermines the entire purpose of a free market.

Banning advertising is only a bad thing for bad companies: good companies would only stand to benefit. Banning advertising would free good companies to spend their resources on producing the best products and services at the lowest cost: every cent companies spend on advertising now is wasted money. Sure, some companies would go under without advertising. Good riddance: if your company can't sell products and services without ramming them down consumer's throats, your products/services aren't of value.

Contrary to the advertiser's paternalistic views, the efficient market hypothesis means that people understand their own problems and can find solutions to them without your help. The world would be better off without advertising.

[1] https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/index.htm

[2] https://www.outdoorgearlab.com/

[3] https://weighmyrack.com/

[4] https://labdoor.com/

[5] https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/therapists

[6] https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/

[7] https://www.sheldonbrown.com/

[8] https://www.erowid.org/

[9] https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/

Re: Open letter: Ban surveillance-based advertising

#87

Do we have a good proposed legal definition of surveillance-based advertising?

A very experienced expert lawyer who should know, and knows adtech well says "Section 3 of the DPA? Advertising using data that would reveal an identifiable living individual ? It’s a bit more complex than that as processes to protect such data being used should also be included."

DPA is I assume Data Protection Act (UK): https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2018/12/contents/enacte...

Re: Open letter: Ban surveillance-based advertising

#88

Do we have a good proposed legal definition of surveillance-based advertising?

If it collects any data at all, it's surveillance. Anything else is a loophole.

That is nearly impossible to avoid. Go to your local store enough times and they might remember you, even when no data is retained at all.

Re: Open letter: Ban surveillance-based advertising

#89

I think there's a simpler way to achieve this. Force companies who leak personal data to pay reasonable damages to all the individuals involved, on the scale of 10-100 dollars, depending on how much personal info has been leaked. That would make businesses very quickly reassess how much data they need to keep, and how careful they need to be with it, without requiring any really radical legislation.

If my information gets leaked and my identity compromised, you think $10-100 is reasonable compensation? I like the idea but I don't think we can put any sort of numbers on damages like this before it happens.

Re: Open letter: Ban surveillance-based advertising

#90

Do we have a good proposed legal definition of surveillance-based advertising?

The report defines it as >In this context, we use the term ‘surveillance-based advertising’ as a blanket >term for digital advertising that is targeted at individuals or consumer >segments, usually through tracking and profiling based on personal data. This is ridiculous. If I am trying to advertise an Elixer IDE, then I don't want my advertisements shown to any random person on the internet. The majority of users on…

That shouldn't be that hard. Doesn't Elexir have a forum, user groups or other place where people self-select for interest in that?

Surely you can buy ads in subreddits, or on specific tags on Stack Overflow?

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