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Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains

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Re: Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains

#281

Post by herbst »

rawtxapp wrote: post #115
verdverm wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a law that requires financial institutions to "Know Their Customer" in order to operate legally. It's a reasonable law. Following existing regulations will be needed for crypto to have a chance at being mainstream

Or arguably, it's burdening 99% of legitimate users to stop the 1% of bad actors.

I can withdraw 1000$ daily up to 10.000 per year (or device/IP rather) without KYC.

I am not sure if the burden is worth it, when living in the right country makes cashing out without KYC kinda easy?

Sure no way to pull out millions, but I would argue most bad actors are rather on a 10k level.

Re: Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains

#282

Post by antihero »

metalex wrote: post #101

I'm an investor in one of these (as a disclaimer and because I'm excited about the tech) -- https://structure.fi/ . Personally, I think this is going to be huge over time. Trading on-chain tokenized stocks 24/7 is a powerful layer above the traditional financial markets.

Isn't this just trading internet magic beans?

As an investor, you have 100% a vested interest in this getting big at all cost, because otherwise, who's going to buy your magic beans from you? So anything you say about is kind of compromised.

Re: Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains

#283

Post by simonh »

pishpash wrote: post #200
H8crilA wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I would like to emphasize the fact that they're settled once individual contracts expire, be it cash or delivery. I am yet to find a useful derivative that lacks a settling mechanism. How would you even price such a contract that lacks settling? Like why should it be worth anything at all?

How do stocks that never pay a dividend settle?

Companies hold assets, cash flow and perform real world activities that have a tangible value. There are multiple ways that value can be realised. Aside from speculative investors which were discussing, companies and individuals can buy shares in order to exert strategic influence over the company for their own reasons, so the shares have a value to them beyond just the share price. For example the way Microsoft owned shares in Apple for a long time because the existence and operations of Apple at the time benefited them. Ultimately management can buy out the company, or an external player can mount a takeover, or there could be a merger, any of which can lead to a cash out situation.

E.g. a software company might never pay a dividend, but the company might be bought by a company that wants to acquire it's products or customers, or it's technology team. These things have economic value that can be realised. So there are multiple ways a company can have value that can lead to share owners benefiting from the materialisation of that value.

Re: Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains

#284

Post by lxgr »

delaaxe wrote: post #248
danielmarkbruce wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't it also weird that crypto enthusiasts assume that you obviously can't trust a central clearing house (or similar mechanism) when they have been working well for hundreds of years? In numerous cases humans trust institutions for certain things, and those institutions are usually strongly incentivized to act honorably, and do so. And when they don't, the court system works pretty well. At least in the countries w…

No one would want to use a clearing system if it was possible to do without. Now it is.

Is it, though?

One quite essential feature of a clearinghouse is the ability to correct the books in case of operational errors, in response to court orders etc.

People lose their passwords, get scammed, go bankrupt, die and leave their possessions to their next of kin... It's very hard to achieve the desired/expected outcome for any of these situations on a blockchain.

Re: Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains

#285

Post by ajkdhcb2 »

runeks wrote: post #201
Animats wrote: post #186

The basic idea is that bets are collateralized at a level of 150% of the starting price. If you buy a synthetic stock when it's at 100, and it goes above 150, your bet is cashed out at that point. As usual, the big question is, what's the collateral? In this case it's their very own private stablecoin, Terra, which pays an annual percentage rate of 17%. That, in turn, is being paid by people who are borrowing that st…

This should not be legal. It’s not okay to conjure up some arbitrary scheme, consisting of five different cryptocurrencies, and sell the instrument as though it will always track the price of some stock. It’s not okay to say “well, we thought it would work” when the system crashes. This should be considered as negligence (in properly ensuring that your system will work as advertised before selling to consumers) by th…

Seems ok for the 'existing financial system' to do it. Governments can just do a bailout when it collapses.

I think we will continue to see these parallels. The only reason people accept the existing financial system is that they don't understand it and/or it has become normalised. When people are seen trying to pull the same tricks with crypto, there is a justifiable but unfair negative response.

Re: Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains

#286

Post by NicoJuicy »

sjtindell wrote: post #81
tablespoon wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Users can trade the tokens anonymously 24 hours a day, seven days a week, from anywhere, unhindered by capital controls, “know your client” rules imposed on broker-dealers, and other frictions of the traditional financial system. > These are certainly new innovations and features, be they good or bad. That's saying a car with its seat belts removed has an "innovative new feature." The usual word for that situation…

Would you have said the same when we moved from measuring stock prices in increments of dubloons to decimals? Where does all this HN hostility come from, I thought this crypto stuff would mesh so well with the Silicon Valley mindset. Trading should be instant, totally free, in any increment you choose, across borders! That’s the kind of mentality we apply to so much else in tech right? Is this really a bunch of hacke…

You need to disassociate the tech ( blockchain) from the example implementation ( cryptos)

Crypto has become monstrous, filled up with fake stable coins and most of them ( i think) consider it a pyramid scheme currently, nothing more.

Move fast and break things is a slogan for your own company for growth. Not when you are playing with other people's money.

Crypto is filled up with pump and dump schemes. Not much of the original intentions remained by now.

Re: Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains

#287

Post by JumpCrisscross »

pishpash wrote: post #200
H8crilA wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I would like to emphasize the fact that they're settled once individual contracts expire, be it cash or delivery. I am yet to find a useful derivative that lacks a settling mechanism. How would you even price such a contract that lacks settling? Like why should it be worth anything at all?

How do stocks that never pay a dividend settle?

> How do stocks that never pay a dividend settle?

The textbook answer to stock value is dividends. Many companies, most, I would argue, never reach that point.

In practice, the chief defender of fundamental value is M&A. Whole-company buyers can tap free cash flow in a way minority investors can’t. That is the arbitrage that sets a lower bound on the value of a company’s shares relative to its cash flow. (There is no similar mechanism for setting an upper bound.)

Re: Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains

#288

Post by delaaxe »

lxgr wrote: post #284
delaaxe wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one would want to use a clearing system if it was possible to do without. Now it is.

Is it, though? One quite essential feature of a clearinghouse is the ability to correct the books in case of operational errors, in response to court orders etc. People lose their passwords, get scammed, go bankrupt, die and leave their possessions to their next of kin... It's very hard to achieve the desired/expected outcome for any of these situations on a blockchain.

It has worked well enough for trading of physical items with dollar bills for quite some time

Re: Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains

#289

Post by [deleted] »

kqr wrote: post #211
ButtSpark69 wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But most things of this type specifically arent settled, they're settled in cash and rolled over, again and again and again, forever. Look at the volumes traded for these derivatives, numbers are insanely high. People don't mostly use them to do what they were intended (hedge a poor rain year or similar), but to GAMBLE. The rest is mostly just narrative.

Saying that they were intended for hedging sounds like a very strong proposition to me. Chicago-style futures have (and have had, for as long as we know) numerous features that indicate speculation (or gambling, as it's also known) as one of their big reasons for existence. They are also used to sell unconventional services (being long corn in August and short corn in July is effectively selling the service of transp…

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