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Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains

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Re: Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains

#81
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From TFA: > Users can trade the tokens anonymously 24 hours a day, seven days a week, from anywhere, unhindered by capital controls, “know your client” rules imposed on broker-dealers, and other frictions of the traditional financial system. These are certainly new innovations and features, be they good or bad.

>> Users can trade the tokens anonymously 24 hours a day, seven days a week, from anywhere, unhindered by capital controls, “know your client” rules imposed on broker-dealers, and other frictions of the traditional financial system. > These are certainly new innovations and features, be they good or bad. That's saying a car with its seat belts removed has an "innovative new feature." The usual word for that situation…

Would you have said the same when we moved from measuring stock prices in increments of dubloons to decimals?

Where does all this HN hostility come from, I thought this crypto stuff would mesh so well with the Silicon Valley mindset. Trading should be instant, totally free, in any increment you choose, across borders! That’s the kind of mentality we apply to so much else in tech right? Is this really a bunch of hackers defending oppressive government regulations written by lobbyists for oligopolies?

Since when does Silicon Valley defend the old ways?

Re: Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains

#82
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a reason they got sanctioned, though, right? Broadly, attempting to develop nuclear warheads in unstable regions. So yeah, I'm ok with sanctioned people not trading TSLA to pressure the regime. Frankly, I can't think of a reason why that would be ok.

The sanctions affect everyone in Iran. The elites and people actually involved in the nuclear program in Iran have access to dollars/western markets via smuggling networks and other underground efforts (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reza_Zarrab , https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/two-us-citizens-one-pakistani... , NIOC and ship-to-ship transfers, etc). The result is that unconnected people suffer and the elites cont…

Is it possible to exert pressure on the regime without also exerting pressure on the people? It's obviously sad collateral but IMO avoiding the Iranians getting a nuke is worth the cost. Undercutting the effort seems the worst of all worlds with most Iranians continuing to pay a high price for longer.

Re: Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains

#83
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wildcat banking increased incentives for risk-taking and fraud to high levels. The evidence points out that it’s the current banking system that incentivizes risk taking because the international bankers know they’re getting a bailout every time when they mess up. > The US has huge financial industry partly because the regulation is so extensive. People from all over the world invest their money in the US because t…

There's no need to use blockchain technology for stock trading. The current centralized clearinghouse system works fine and is highly scalable. It also allows for transactions to be unwound in the case of mistakes or system failures. No one cares if a handful of retail investors lost money on foolish GameStop trades.

> There's no need to use blockchain technology for stock trading.

You can believe what you want, I find the current system very hard to trust.

With a blockchain, you don't have to trust anybody: you can just always get verifiable accurate real-time information with no possibility for manipulation or corruption.

> The current centralized clearinghouse system works fine

I don't understand how anybody could think that a system that can't even reliably and accurately tell you how many shares of real stock are in existence, requires self-interested self-reporting for vital stats with a slap on the wrist fine for "errors", and allows shares to be sold multiple times somehow is working fine.

> is highly scalable

T+2 time for trades to clear is highly scalable?

> No one cares if a handful of retail investors lost money on foolish GameStop trades.

The issue isn't that some people made or lost money on a trade: the issue is that there's different sets of rules for different people with the current system.

Re: Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains

#84
post #7

>Binance may have violated securities rules when it issued the tokenized shares of Tesla, MicroStrategy Inc. and Coinbase, BaFin said in April. Microstrategy Inc. So just to be clear, they're created a synthetic crypto-instrument to track the performance of a share that is something like >90% correlated with BTC (since MSTR is basically a leveraged BTC bet now). This is absolutely snake eating it's own tail kinds of…

This isn't about Mark Cuban's losses per se, I also have no issue with him (an accredited investor) getting bilked for some change between the couch cushions - the issue is even if an incredibly sophisticated investor like Mark could fall for such a rug-pull/failure then how can we possibly expect unsophisticated investors not to get bamboozled? Remember, those who wash out of trading end up beneficiaries of the stat…

Do you mean he's sophisticated in the general usage of the word or in the financial usage? The financial version tends to mean "has a lot of money."

Re: Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains

#85

Looks like cryptocurrencies are not very innovative. They keep reinstalling all the features that have been there and improved in the regular markets. Tether and stablecoins mimicking the USD, now this stuff mimicking stocks, how are the not getting in trouble with government institutions or Apple? What are the loopholes? No existing laws yet? Or they operate and reside in far away jurisdictions?

The fact that these offerings are non-custodial is innovative, as is the fact that they are always open (albeit if there's high demand the fees may be high enough to be prohibitive)

FDIC & regulation kind of makes it so for most people most of the time it doesn't matter that banks are custodial.

Offering these services without being custodial is innovative though.

EDIT:

The other major (IMO) innovative piece is the permissionlessness. zapper.fi is a great example of being able to build something that adds lots of value (given you've already bought into crypto & defi) without needing anyone's permission to integrate into their systems.

Re: Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains

#86

How does this make sense? If they don't hold the underlying security, where does the value come from? This feel like it's another one of those "while money is flowing in it'll work, but if there's a run, it crashes spectacularly". If the liquidity dries up, i end up owning nothing. With a real security at least i end up owning a small part of apple, but here i literally own nothing.

If the hedge funds and prime brokers are allowed to sell the unsuspecting public a bunch of counterfeit shorts, why not let the crypto market do the same? I’m only half joking.

Well the goal is never to have more problems. The discussion of the good or evils of regulations in general is a pretty deep debate in America though.

Re: Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Users can trade the tokens anonymously 24 hours a day, seven days a week, from anywhere, unhindered by capital controls, “know your client” rules imposed on broker-dealers, and other frictions of the traditional financial system. > These are certainly new innovations and features, be they good or bad. That's saying a car with its seat belts removed has an "innovative new feature." The usual word for that situation…

Would you have said the same when we moved from measuring stock prices in increments of dubloons to decimals? Where does all this HN hostility come from, I thought this crypto stuff would mesh so well with the Silicon Valley mindset. Trading should be instant, totally free, in any increment you choose, across borders! That’s the kind of mentality we apply to so much else in tech right? Is this really a bunch of hacke…

[deleted]

Re: Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains

#88

Looks like cryptocurrencies are not very innovative. They keep reinstalling all the features that have been there and improved in the regular markets. Tether and stablecoins mimicking the USD, now this stuff mimicking stocks, how are the not getting in trouble with government institutions or Apple? What are the loopholes? No existing laws yet? Or they operate and reside in far away jurisdictions?

I haven't seen anything like Uniswap in the regular markets.

Re: Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't about Mark Cuban's losses per se, I also have no issue with him (an accredited investor) getting bilked for some change between the couch cushions - the issue is even if an incredibly sophisticated investor like Mark could fall for such a rug-pull/failure then how can we possibly expect unsophisticated investors not to get bamboozled? Remember, those who wash out of trading end up beneficiaries of the stat…

Do you mean he's sophisticated in the general usage of the word or in the financial usage? The financial version tends to mean "has a lot of money."

Definitely that, but also the man is an investor. He should have both the knowledge and the money.

Re: Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains

#90
Fake seems like a strange choice of words here. These things arent attempting to deceive anyone into believing they are the real thing. They clearly label themselves as derivatives.

We don't call corn futures fake corn, we don't call derivatives of other types fake those things and we shouldn't call these fake stocks.

I'm really not defending or not defending whatever these platforms are. I wouldn't be surprised if there is shady stuff going on here. But call it whatever it is. It isn't fake stocks.

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