Live data from Hacker News

Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains

bloomberg.com

41–50 of 361 posts

Re: Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains

#41

Looks like cryptocurrencies are not very innovative. They keep reinstalling all the features that have been there and improved in the regular markets. Tether and stablecoins mimicking the USD, now this stuff mimicking stocks, how are the not getting in trouble with government institutions or Apple? What are the loopholes? No existing laws yet? Or they operate and reside in far away jurisdictions?

I don't think there's any political interest in looking at them right now. It's largely just a bunch of nerds playing with pretend money. It hasn't really hurt anybody outside of it yet.

That's true, though govts are definitely looking at them.

On one hand, the crypto-economy is still too small to represent the same kind of systemic risk that took down the banking system in 2007/8, so there's less urgency to do anything about it.

Additionally, both governments and regulators, in the US at least, tend to prefer to let new technologies incubate and evolve for a time before regulating it more strictly.

On the other hand, it's too small to have the armies of lawyers defending it that the banking system does, so it's an easier target for regulators looking for wins than Wall Street is.

The SEC, CFTC, Treasury are all looking at it in the US and doing some triage regulation, only going after the most blatant and worst problems atm. I'm sure they'll step it up if/when the crypto-economy continues to grow.

Re: Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains

#42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think there's any political interest in looking at them right now. It's largely just a bunch of nerds playing with pretend money. It hasn't really hurt anybody outside of it yet.

This pretend money is currently the main driving mechanism behind the unprecedented business hacking and ransomware wave.

And for things like paying for ddos attacks and money laundering in general. Ah yes, and the classic all things dark web. There is not one use case except speculation for people who are not amongst the non law abiding elements of society.

Re: Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains

#43

Benefits: 24/7, lower fees, less financial incumbent insiders front running your trades, less retail traders giving data of their every move to financial incumbent insiders, privacy. I think this'll be adopted widely in the near-future by savvy traders. It benefits the little guys. And I look forward to the day companies preferably issue equity directly atop decentralized networks - under what legal framework and/or…

Not in America they won't lol, it's illegal. In fact it's illegal for US persons to trade securities out of a non-SEC regulated brokerage account. See Regulation S. Isn't the new monetization strategy in crypto literally to reorder blocks and front-run transactions due to the massive time quanta? How exactly do you think the NBBO rule is to be implemented? [1] The little guys as always are the most likely to get hurt…

>Not in America they won't lol, it's illegal. In fact it's illegal for US persons to trade securities out of a non-SEC regulated brokerage account

Is this comment referring companies issuing equity directly on-chain?

Of course it's currently illegal.

That doesn't mean it's illegal in all global jurisdictions or that savvy traders won't find a way to have financial liberty, even if it means moving countries/jurisdictions, opening up a corporation elsewhere etc..

>Isn't the new monetization strategy in crypto literally to reorder blocks and front-run transactions due to the massive time quanta?

What a disingenuous way to frame the concept of MEV.. That's quite an unobjective bias you have.

>The little guys as always are the most likely to get hurt.

The little guys are most likely to get hurt when there's a lack of transparency. In an internet age with transparent tools, the little guys should have freedom with accountability (e.g. they can't even invest in startups).

Re: Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains

#44
post #21

I think this is illegal. This is effectively a CFD, which are absolutely illegal in the US regulated or not. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contract_for_difference

Does this mean that Archegos and all its counterparties were not permitted to trade CFDs?

Re: Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains

#45

How does this make sense? If they don't hold the underlying security, where does the value come from? This feel like it's another one of those "while money is flowing in it'll work, but if there's a run, it crashes spectacularly". If the liquidity dries up, i end up owning nothing. With a real security at least i end up owning a small part of apple, but here i literally own nothing.

If the hedge funds and prime brokers are allowed to sell the unsuspecting public a bunch of counterfeit shorts, why not let the crypto market do the same?

I’m only half joking.

Re: Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. There's a big difference. When Webvan went bankrupt, they truly bought all of those warehouses / refrigerated vans. They were honest about their business idea. When "Africrypt" (a recent Crypto group) stole $3.6 Billion from its customers, that's straight up fraud and would not stand even back in the dot-com boom in the 90s. That's the sort of thing US Regulators are trying to protect investors from. ---------- Y…

I agree with you on Webvan but Theranos was pure fraud. The so called "Crypto" industry will mature when regulation happens and when real cryptographers and real computer scientists enter the scene and start innovating. Until then we have hyped up teens playing with the buzzwords like blockchain and decentralized finance. >The size and scope of the scams currently going on in the Blockchain world is far worse than wh…

It's been almost 14 years, so where are the "real cryptographers" and "real computer scientists?" I suspect they've been searching and realized there's no "there" there.

Re: Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains

#47
post #21

I think this is illegal. This is effectively a CFD, which are absolutely illegal in the US regulated or not. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contract_for_difference

Do they have a fixed end date? If not, it sounds more like other kinds of derivatives (legal if regulated, which this isn't).

Re: Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not in America they won't lol, it's illegal. In fact it's illegal for US persons to trade securities out of a non-SEC regulated brokerage account. See Regulation S. Isn't the new monetization strategy in crypto literally to reorder blocks and front-run transactions due to the massive time quanta? How exactly do you think the NBBO rule is to be implemented? [1] The little guys as always are the most likely to get hurt…

>Not in America they won't lol, it's illegal. In fact it's illegal for US persons to trade securities out of a non-SEC regulated brokerage account Is this comment referring companies issuing equity directly on-chain? Of course it's currently illegal. That doesn't mean it's illegal in all global jurisdictions or that savvy traders won't find a way to have financial liberty, even if it means moving countries/jurisdicti…

Why would we voluntarily give up the security afforded by the SEC?

The front-running thing is literal observable fact. If you know what transactions are to be included in the next block, and you're in charge of ordering them on a multi-minute timeframe, and you know pricing on exchanges in real-time why would you not take advantage? Why would you not front run? There's no law stopping you is there?

> The little guys are most likely to get hurt when there's a lack of transparency. In an internet age with transparent tools, the little guys should have freedom with accountability (e.g. they can't even invest in startups).

Which is exactly the issue with the blockchain. You're given a peek at the chain but that's not what matters.

Re: Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains

#49

Benefits: 24/7, lower fees, less financial incumbent insiders front running your trades, less retail traders giving data of their every move to financial incumbent insiders, privacy. I think this'll be adopted widely in the near-future by savvy traders. It benefits the little guys. And I look forward to the day companies preferably issue equity directly atop decentralized networks - under what legal framework and/or…

If you think this is a good idea, I'm happy to sell you and other "savvy traders" the Brooklyn Bridge.

Benefits: no intermediaries and absolutely no money wasted on lawyers or due diligence. Drawbacks: you don't have a bridge, or even an option on one.

Re: Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains

#50

Benefits: 24/7, lower fees, less financial incumbent insiders front running your trades, less retail traders giving data of their every move to financial incumbent insiders, privacy. I think this'll be adopted widely in the near-future by savvy traders. It benefits the little guys. And I look forward to the day companies preferably issue equity directly atop decentralized networks - under what legal framework and/or…

Not in America they won't lol, it's illegal. In fact it's illegal for US persons to trade securities out of a non-SEC regulated brokerage account. See Regulation S. Isn't the new monetization strategy in crypto literally to reorder blocks and front-run transactions due to the massive time quanta? How exactly do you think the NBBO rule is to be implemented? [1] The little guys as always are the most likely to get hurt…

It will not be implemented, of course. But it's a bit interesting to bring up MEV and the NBBO rule together. The situation in the US is that retail order flow is goes to wholesalers, and wholesalers subscribe to the SIP feed (which is substantially delayed) and the direct feeds from venues, and they can decide whether they want to offer price improvement compared to the *delayed SIP feed* based on the more recent data from the direct feeds. It doesn't seem like retail is getting a great deal in that situation.
Post reply on HN