A new brain implant automatically detects and kills pain in real time • Hacker News Board

Re: A new brain implant automatically detects and kills pain in real time

#91

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jul 06, 2021, 9:59 PM UTC

heavyset_go wrote: post #87

warent wrote: post #3

I always feel so confused by--and skeptical of--these kinds of brain implant technologies. It says: "The chip then automatically triggers a light beam to stimulate the region, activating neurons that can override pain signals." Isn't that potentially stimulating millions or even hundreds of millions of neurons? We don't know what each individual neuron is doing. How is it possible to do this without causing bizarre m…

> Isn't that potentially stimulating millions or even hundreds of millions of neurons? We don't know what each individual neuron is doing. How is it possible to do this without causing bizarre malfunctions of the brain at best, or completely lobotomizing someone at worst? Many psychiatric drugs affect large parts of the brain despite the drugs' efficacies being determined by their effects on much smaller parts of the…

[deleted]

Re: A new brain implant automatically detects and kills pain in real time

#92

Post by ArnoVW » Tue, Jul 06, 2021, 10:00 PM UTC

papito wrote: post #30

There is a neural disorder where people can't feel pain, and it's hell. You live your life wrapped in protective gear.

If memory serves, this is also why leprosy sufferers often miss extremities. Their nerves are cut by the initial bacterial infection, and repeated (unnoticed) cuts so the rest.

Re: A new brain implant automatically detects and kills pain in real time

#93

Post by imwillofficial » Tue, Jul 06, 2021, 10:03 PM UTC

nszceta wrote: post #62

The Hedonistic Imperative outlines how genetic engineering and nanotechnology will abolish suffering in all sentient life. The abolitionist project is hugely ambitious but technically feasible. It is also instrumentally rational and morally urgent. The metabolic pathways of pain and malaise evolved because they served the fitness of our genes in the ancestral environment. They will be replaced by a different sort of…

Leave it to modern man to think we can rearchitect something so fundamental as pain and pleasure in the human experience without disastrous results.

Re: A new brain implant automatically detects and kills pain in real time

#94

Post by arsome » Tue, Jul 06, 2021, 10:04 PM UTC

nszceta wrote: post #62

The Hedonistic Imperative outlines how genetic engineering and nanotechnology will abolish suffering in all sentient life. The abolitionist project is hugely ambitious but technically feasible. It is also instrumentally rational and morally urgent. The metabolic pathways of pain and malaise evolved because they served the fitness of our genes in the ancestral environment. They will be replaced by a different sort of…

> Two hundred years ago, powerful synthetic pain-killers and surgical anesthetics were unknown.

But opium sure as hell wasn't! And it seems to check most of your suggested boxes too, however I don't think it makes for a good society, perhaps you should consider why, because it's pretty much what you're suggesting.

Why enjoy social interaction? Why enjoy arts? Why learn things? You'd be perfectly happy with more magic hedonism pills. Unpleasantness, and yes, pain is as important a part of being as any other part.

Re: A new brain implant automatically detects and kills pain in real time

#95

Post by heavyset_go » Tue, Jul 06, 2021, 10:06 PM UTC

bigmattystyles wrote: post #65

As someone with very mild / low-intensity chronic pain, this is promising. My number one fear, limiting me, is that it will get worse, despite medical assurances that it's unlikely. Tech like this could remove that fear and let me live my life (though with my personality, I have no doubt I will find something else to fixate on). I'm working on it with current approaches, but CBT and ssri's only work so well on me. I…

Opioid receptor modulators are being researched as an avenue for treating pain[1]. They don't cause opioid tolerance or addiction, but do offer increased pain relief, and some are available today like CBD, THC and other cannabinoids.

They seem kind of promising for pain that's alleviated well with opioids versus non-opioids.

[1] https://www.pnas.org/content/118/16/e2000017118

Re: A new brain implant automatically detects and kills pain in real time

#96

Post by throwamon » Tue, Jul 06, 2021, 10:10 PM UTC

nszceta wrote: post #62

The Hedonistic Imperative outlines how genetic engineering and nanotechnology will abolish suffering in all sentient life. The abolitionist project is hugely ambitious but technically feasible. It is also instrumentally rational and morally urgent. The metabolic pathways of pain and malaise evolved because they served the fitness of our genes in the ancestral environment. They will be replaced by a different sort of…

> in all sentient life

I don't think we have to worry too much about ALL of sentient life, since all that's gonna be left of it soon is humans and pets and cattle.

> most of us in the technically advanced nations take its routine absence for granted

The absence of pain is not the absence of issues. Unless you can "solve" all (physical, psychological, societal) issues (and what would "solving" most of them even mean?), you're advocating for literally the cliche "treating the symptom and not the cause", Brave-New-World-soma-style.

Re: A new brain implant automatically detects and kills pain in real time

#97

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jul 06, 2021, 10:11 PM UTC

arsome wrote: post #94

nszceta wrote: post #62

The Hedonistic Imperative outlines how genetic engineering and nanotechnology will abolish suffering in all sentient life. The abolitionist project is hugely ambitious but technically feasible. It is also instrumentally rational and morally urgent. The metabolic pathways of pain and malaise evolved because they served the fitness of our genes in the ancestral environment. They will be replaced by a different sort of…

> Two hundred years ago, powerful synthetic pain-killers and surgical anesthetics were unknown. But opium sure as hell wasn't! And it seems to check most of your suggested boxes too, however I don't think it makes for a good society, perhaps you should consider why, because it's pretty much what you're suggesting. Why enjoy social interaction? Why enjoy arts? Why learn things? You'd be perfectly happy with more magic…

[deleted]

Re: A new brain implant automatically detects and kills pain in real time

#98

Post by icelandicmoss » Tue, Jul 06, 2021, 10:16 PM UTC

shkkmo wrote: post #49

BoxOfRain wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure there's a middle ground between our default level of evolutionary baggage and no pain at all though. I wouldn't mind keeping burns and broken bones being painful, but I'd love to do away with minor annoyances like stinging nettles, wasps, and things like that. Also being able to turn off pain to a specific problematic area would be nice too, I have a permanent headache from a neurological issue and it'd save…

I think the useful distinction is between acute pain, which is generally very useful, and chronic pain, which has huge negative effects with no known upside.

Agree. I recently read Pain is Really Strange (Steve Haines) and it was such a perspective shift on my understanding of how different the two are. (The illustrations are fantastic as well.)

https://uk.singingdragon.com/products/pain-is-really-strange

Re: A new brain implant automatically detects and kills pain in real time

#99

Post by scandox » Tue, Jul 06, 2021, 10:18 PM UTC

nszceta wrote: post #62

The Hedonistic Imperative outlines how genetic engineering and nanotechnology will abolish suffering in all sentient life. The abolitionist project is hugely ambitious but technically feasible. It is also instrumentally rational and morally urgent. The metabolic pathways of pain and malaise evolved because they served the fitness of our genes in the ancestral environment. They will be replaced by a different sort of…

> it is also instrumentally rational

How is it meaningful to say that a goal or project is instrumentally rational? It may be instrumentally rational to pursue a goal or project without regard to the means and only focusing on the ends...In other words the people executing it are instrumentally rational. But surely the thing itself cannot be said to "instrumentally rational" - what would that even mean? The goal is the goal. That is a value judgement that can be pursued in an instrumentally rational manner, but cannot itself be anything other than a goal valued by someone.

Re: A new brain implant automatically detects and kills pain in real time

#100

Post by goldenkey » Tue, Jul 06, 2021, 10:20 PM UTC

BizarroLand wrote: post #48

Retric wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The brain is far more robust than often assumed. Read up on Anatoli Bugorski for example. He had rather significant brain damage yet there was virtually no damage to his intellectual capacity. He did suffer from seizures after the accident, but that’s about it. These kinds of implants have serious risks including infections etc, but for people with long term chronic pain there are few options.

I've seen a few instances where pain management becomes the overall deciding factor in peoples' day to day life. "I can't go to work and feed my family because everything hurts so bad" can become a common statement for these people. In addition, addiction to painkillers, spending a huge percentage of your income at compounding pharmacies, and turning to illegal and possibly dangerous drugs to save a buck or to fill t…

As a chronic pain sufferer, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitragyna_speciosa basically saved my life.

The DEA tried to ban it a few years ago but too many cancer patients testified before Congress how well it worked compared to the prescription opioids. The DEA was forced to bow out.

The cool thing about Mitragyna speciosa is that it's a tree, a pretty hardy one. In my experience, the older trees have more potent leaves, but ideally, one could plant this tree in their backyard and never have to worry about being dependent on outside help for their pain ever again. You just dry the leaves and make tea from them.