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Israel data reportedly shows efficacy drop of Pfizer-BioNTech for delta variant

fortune.com

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Re: Israel data reportedly shows efficacy drop of Pfizer-BioNTech for delta variant

#231

Post by deregulateMed »

minikites wrote: post #228
deregulateMed wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the United States the poor get Medicaid, so it's really just the Middle Class who need to afford the $8000 to hit the max out of pocket.

>In the United States the poor get Medicaid If they're lucky, Medicaid is in no way universal. Why shouldn't everyone have access to this technology via universal health care?

If you can't afford $8,000, you can always declare bankruptcy.

I'm both mocking the healthcare cartels and giving you a genuine solution.

Universal healthcare doesn't solve the supply issue.

Re: Israel data reportedly shows efficacy drop of Pfizer-BioNTech for delta variant

#232

Post by bena »

sjwalter wrote: post #180
neogodless wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It takes 3 to 7 years to see some negative consequences of vaccines I tried some Google Fu but all I came up with was this: https://www.chop.edu/news/long-term-side-effects-covid-19-va... > The history of vaccines shows that delayed effects following vaccination can occur. But when they do, these effects tend to happen within two months of vaccination > These experiences demonstrate two important findings. First, w…

https://www.wiley.com/en-us/Vaccines+and+Autoimmunity-p-9781... It's so, so strange that otherwise smart people believe that this one giant category of medical technology has no long-term side effects. Like, FDA phase 3 trials are totally superfluous for vaccines, right? Because you can detect all the problems in 2 months! Remember, the medical community can absolutely get things super-wrong in super-damaging ways fo…

Is that the paper they had retracted due to lack of reproducibility? Or the one where they claim vaccines lead to autism?

I forget because the authors have had papers on their vaccine research retracted for various reasons.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yehuda_Shoenfeld

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Shaw_(neuroscienti...

(It talks about Lucija Tomljenovic in there, but Shaw isn't much better)

Or the fact that ASIA hasn't been confirmed by any reproducible study?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autoimmune/inflammatory_syndro...

You try and stave off criticism to play concern troll by making the claim you are "more vaccinated" than everyone else. But you are peddling junk science about other vaccines to discredit this vaccine.

Re: Israel data reportedly shows efficacy drop of Pfizer-BioNTech for delta variant

#233

Post by agent008t »

Auracle wrote: post #215
agent008t wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if it is placebo effect - so what? Placebo effect is still real and has real world consequences. If someone has higher levels of fatigue, or is more susceptible to depression or anxiety after COVID (both symptoms of long COVID) - is it any consolation to them that 'it is all in their head'? It is still an effect that must be considered and that must be studied and treated.

The things that would be studied would be quite different. Real long COVID - are there still viruses or virus fragments in the body? Is it a minor autoimmune condition? Is it due to damage that the virus did? Is severity of initial disease progression linked to severity of long COVID effects? Placebo long COVID - To what extent are people susceptible to media influence when it comes to disease effects? Are people in…

The problem is that we do not know how long covid works, so both areas of research need to be considered. The discussion around long covid is very similar to the discussion around CFS. Both are somewhat subjective and not easily measurable, unless the form is really severe, yet to the people experiencing them are very real with a clear 'before' and 'after'. The exact mechanism for either of them is unknown. There is some evidence that CFS is caused by a viral infection (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32129496/). There is also some evidence that cognitive behavioral therapy can help with CFS (https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/chronic-fatigue-syndrome-cfs/t...). So there appears to be both a physical and a psychological side to it, and that is likely to be the case with long covid as well.

Just because something 'might all be in their head', or has a partly psychological cause does not mean that it is easy to treat or can be dismissed, or that it won't happen to you. It just means it needs to be treated with appropriate methods, e.g. therapy.

The bottom line is that long covid most definitely needs to be considered both when setting public policy, and when deciding on the risks everyone personally is willing to take. And we do not yet have enough data on the effects that vaccines have on long covid or on the risks of getting it.

Re: Israel data reportedly shows efficacy drop of Pfizer-BioNTech for delta variant

#234

Post by Woberto »

penteract wrote: post #196
occamrazor wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you have symptoms for 9 weeks (your previous comment) or >1 year (this comment)?

Not the original commenter, but it seems clear that they had symptoms of long covid for >1 year after first catching covid, and those symptoms stopped <9 weeks after getting the first dose of the vaccine.

I don't think it's clear at all, OP made a distinction between some symptoms lasting up to 9 weeks (presumably after covid) vs symptoms from the vaccine lasting 6 weeks

Re: Israel data reportedly shows efficacy drop of Pfizer-BioNTech for delta variant

#235

Post by webkike »

simonh wrote: post #158
webkike wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The percent of hospitalization increased from 1.8% to 7%, which is about four times. This is basically lying with statistics

As I understand it that's still better than the non-mRNA vaccines, because it's an increase from a very small rate. What exactly is the lie?

The “lie” (it’s not a lie, it’s just deceiving) is saying that it’s a four times increase. You could also say “6% increase”, but that sounds smaller

Re: Israel data reportedly shows efficacy drop of Pfizer-BioNTech for delta variant

#236

Post by davidf18 »

hellomyguys wrote: post #26
0-_-0 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The next sentence is: From May 2 to June 5, the efficacy rate in preventing hospitalization was 98.2%, compared with 93% from June 6 to July 3 That's a 4x higher chance of hospitalisation.

It could be worse. It could have gone from a 99.9% to 99.1% in preventing hospitalization. That would be an 9x higher chance of hospitalization!

Infection rate protection of 64% is the key number because of Long Covid.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/15/health/covid-19-patients....

A study of 2 million people with Covid. 1/4 had symptoms 1 month and later after the initial infection. 1/5 of those were asymptomatic -- they did not know that they had Covid until they complained of health issues consistent with others who had Covid and then were tested.

Areas of the US that are not well vaccinated will be having real problems, but even those that are vaccinated will have to be very, very careful.

Re: Israel data reportedly shows efficacy drop of Pfizer-BioNTech for delta variant

#237

Post by davidf18 »

mizzack wrote: post #44
shoto_io wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s confirming data published by UK health authorities coming to the same conclusion. If you’re 2x vaccinated, hospitalization is highly unlikely for Alpha and Delta variants. See this report, page 44 bottom: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...

What's going on on page 12? 35,251 unvax cases, 34 deaths 4,087 full vax cases, 26 deaths (!?) I'm guessing the vax population still skews older?

Infection rate protection of 64% is the key number because of Long Covid.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/15/health/covid-19-patients....

A study of 2 million people with Covid. 1/4 had symptoms 1 month and later after the initial infection. 1/5 of those were asymptomatic -- they did not know that they had Covid until they complained of health issues consistent with others who had Covid and then were tested.

Areas of the US that are not well vaccinated will be having real problems, but even those that are vaccinated will have to be very, very careful.

Re: Israel data reportedly shows efficacy drop of Pfizer-BioNTech for delta variant

#238

Post by refurb »

datameta wrote: post #226
nradov wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because something is disallowed doesn't mean people stop doing it.

The insinuation is that in such a scenario there would be a strong enough disincentive. And perhaps also the incentive of not having a years long pandemic.

Yeah the farmer in SE Asia whose family is starving because he can’t get to market will certainly not try and break any rules.

Love these solution designed by people who work from home.

Re: Israel data reportedly shows efficacy drop of Pfizer-BioNTech for delta variant

#239

Post by pumpkinandspice »

smnrchrds wrote: post #229
loceng wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll do 99 better for you: https://c19ivermectin.com/ - "Database of all ivermectin COVID-19 studies. 100 studies, 63 peer reviewed, 61 with results comparing treatment and control groups." COVID, Ivermectin, and the Crime of the Century DarkHorse Podcast with Pierre Kory & Bret Weinstein https://vimeo.com/557811163 (2.5 hours; deleted by YouTube) Joe Rogan then recently had Bret Weinstein and Pierre Kory on his podc…

I have a hard time taking things like this seriously: https://twitter.com/PierreKory/status/1411158326726082565 Are all your links like this? Denying what we clearly can see (that vaccines work) to promote what they think will work (ivermectin)? EDIT: It gets worse the lower you scroll. In addition to dismissing vaccines and promoting ivermectin, he signal boosts "natural medicine" too. https://twitter.com/PierreKory…

I don’t think they’re denying that vaccines do not work at all. Have you watched their interviews or listen to their podcasts? They’re quite long but they are challenging the fact that vaccines aren’t the only way out and we need to consider alternatives and one of that alternatives is ivermectin. If you want to reach herd immunity, you want people to get immunity through different means (like getting vaccines and getting covid but with lesser symptoms. Im not saying go out and get covid but people are already getting covid and we need to lower their chance of hospitalization).

Re: Israel data reportedly shows efficacy drop of Pfizer-BioNTech for delta variant

#240

Post by smnrchrds »

pumpkinandspice wrote: post #239
smnrchrds wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a hard time taking things like this seriously: https://twitter.com/PierreKory/status/1411158326726082565 Are all your links like this? Denying what we clearly can see (that vaccines work) to promote what they think will work (ivermectin)? EDIT: It gets worse the lower you scroll. In addition to dismissing vaccines and promoting ivermectin, he signal boosts "natural medicine" too. https://twitter.com/PierreKory…

I don’t think they’re denying that vaccines do not work at all. Have you watched their interviews or listen to their podcasts? They’re quite long but they are challenging the fact that vaccines aren’t the only way out and we need to consider alternatives and one of that alternatives is ivermectin. If you want to reach herd immunity, you want people to get immunity through different means (like getting vaccines and ge…

> I don’t think they’re denying that vaccines do not work at all

That's contrary to the message he signal boosts in the first tweet I linked to.

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