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The Case Against the Covid-19 Lab Leak Theory

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101–110 of 233 posts

Re: The Case Against the Covid-19 Lab Leak Theory

#101
post #94

It doesn't have to have been engineered to have escaped. Why this convolution keeps happening is beyond me, we "know" this isn't a bio-superweapon. Taking this as read, either: Researchers at the lab failed to spot something like this in the wild, in an area where they were looking for this. So, failed to raise the alarm appropriately with acceptable transparency. or, Researcher work at the lab led to the collection…

Didn't the article cover the scenarios you mentioned? The article said that the lab's normal job was to look for new bat viruses, and that it's pretty hard to get infected from a qtip swabbed over a bats anus stored in a stabilizing solution. The bottom line is that the evidence we have at this time points to nature as the most probable origin, and it's not unusual for it to take many years to figure these things out.

Re: The Case Against the Covid-19 Lab Leak Theory

#102
China refuses to allow research into the origin of the virus and blames whoever is pissing them off that day.

I don't think it's beyond reason to think, in a country where officials routinely fudge numbers to avoid jail time, that someone covered their ass for too long and now it's the entire CCP's problem. This article looks like it's just running cover because, idk, GOP evil I guess.

Re: The Case Against the Covid-19 Lab Leak Theory

#103
post #22
post #16

The article opens by pooh-poohing the idea that three WIV researchers with flu-like symptoms in November might have had Covid-19, then a couple of paragraphs later asserts that it's well-known that Covid-19 was already circulating in Wuhan in November. Isn't there a contradiction there? How widely accepted is the notion that Ebola is a bat virus? The last I heard (which was a while ago) the leading theory was a simia…

On the first point, they're just saying that 3 people seeing a doctor about flu symptoms at that time of year is not unusual (most Chinese routinely go to hospitals for any medical treatment), and that even if they did have Covid instead of flu they might have got it outside the lab. There were people in Wuhan with Covid back then, but there were a lot more people with flu. The odds that any given three people with f…

3 people who work on coronavirus research at a lab that is known for lax standards catch coronavirus, and you think it’s more plausible that they each caught it from outside?

Re: The Case Against the Covid-19 Lab Leak Theory

#104
post #94

It doesn't have to have been engineered to have escaped. Why this convolution keeps happening is beyond me, we "know" this isn't a bio-superweapon. Taking this as read, either: Researchers at the lab failed to spot something like this in the wild, in an area where they were looking for this. So, failed to raise the alarm appropriately with acceptable transparency. or, Researcher work at the lab led to the collection…

The article addresses this very point. I have 0 trust in the CCP to do or say anything not in it's own interest, but on the whole the "They found a novel virus in the wild, sampled it, and then it escaped their lab" seems a lot less likely than "Some random person ran across a novel virus in the wild, and got sick".

Re: The Case Against the Covid-19 Lab Leak Theory

#105
post #25

In 10 years China will be the foremost global superpower. I would urge everyone to be very carefully in their criticism of China or support of Taiwan. Remember that what you say on the Internet can live forever. People are being cancelled for far less. And China will not cancel in the way the West cancels. Instead of being fired, be prepared for your whole life to be destroyed, and maybe you being even imprisoned if…

In 20 years, China will start to feel the effects of rapid population aging caused by its one-child policy. Compare https://www.populationpyramid.net/united-states-of-america/2... or https://www.populationpyramid.net/western-europe/2041/ with https://www.populationpyramid.net/china/2041/ China’s challenge is to grow GDP per capita fast enough to handle that.

In 20 years, it will be such an economic powerhouse (its megacities at least), to attract significant amount of young people from neighboring countries or ie Africa. You have half a billion mostly poor people in South east asia alone.

They will do what western Europe is doing for decades - brain drain the smart poor from previously enslaved regions to sustain at least some young demographics to support badly designed social systems.

Its like printing money to get out of state debt - you let the consequences be solved by next generation(s), if required.

Re: The Case Against the Covid-19 Lab Leak Theory

#106
> WIV officials told the investigators that serum samples for all staff and students in the bat coronavirus group subsequently tested negative for Covid antibodies. We have only their word to go on because the lab hasn’t been independently audited...

Why has the lab not been independently audited? If I was going to make a case against someone making an error, saying "well, that group said they didn't make an error" seems like a bad argument.

> The first human case of Covid could have been infected hundreds of miles away, perhaps closer to the horseshoe bat caves of southern China.

Have we found such a person?

> You can get on the fast train in Wuhan and be in Guandong Province, the home of the original SARS outbreak, in under four hours.

If someone had been in Guandong, and taken a train to Wuhan, it seems to me that the early cases would not have been so concentrated in Wuhan, for two reasons: 1) if Wuhan is really all that accessible by different means of transportation, you'd expect people would just as easily take it from Wuhan to other places, and 2) presumably, the fast train doesn't just stop in Wuhan (Google says it's 1000 km away), meaning an infected person on the train could easily have infected someone else on the train who got off in between. Honest question: is that not how the spread of disease would work?

> There is no evidence that the Wuhan Institute of Virology, or anyone else, ever had any strain that similar to Covid-19.

Again, that's what we're trying to figure out. You can't take the thing we're trying to figure out as evidence one way or the other, that's Begging the Question (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question)

> Given that Covid (or its direct ancestor) must exist in nature, it’s more likely that it got out naturally (like SARS and MERS) than that it took an undetectable detour through a secure biolab.

I don't understand this jump. Most people I've read arguing that the lab leak theory is possible agree that there must be some base virus in nature. The question is, what is the more likely path from that natural virus to the COVID outbreak, through a lab or through some other animal (or animals)? I understand the argument that we didn't find the transmission chain for SARS or MERS or Ebola for years, but why does asserting it started in nature lead to the conclusion it therefore had a natural path? This again seems like the author is trying to prove a conclusion using the conclusion.

> The fact that China is being secretive about Covid-19 isn’t evidence for any particular theory.

When SARS came out, I don't remember the Chinese government blaming Italian frozen food or athletes at an international athletics competition for SARS. I don't remember them promising people that it's not transmittable between humans, or that it's not a big deal. I think simply saying "China is being secretive" is not looking at the whole picture.

> All theories of the origins of Covid-19 should be investigated, including lab origin theories. We should go wherever the science takes us.

This seems right to me. We can't make bricks without clay though.

Re: The Case Against the Covid-19 Lab Leak Theory

#107
post #7

As someone who is out of the loop on this and only a basic understanding, it seems very peculiar that scientists were so quickly to just jump on the "it must be bats and a wet market" thing so early on despite the Wuhan lab being right there. It's like when some out-of-control company creates a superfund site through gross negligence of industrial byproduct handling and then goes "idk cancer gonna cancer. you can't l…

It’s much worse than you even hint at. The WIV lab - the one place that might have vindicated the innocence of the lab and perhaps the natural origins of the virus - was shut down and wiped clean while every measure was put in place to stop any semblance of transparency. Chinese scientists who tried to talk about it were disappeared.

An international team was assembled to wage a propaganda effort in order to keep the WIV leak theory from ever becoming viable.

Re: The Case Against the Covid-19 Lab Leak Theory

#108
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both the Ebola and Marburg viruses both seem to live in bats in Africa and periodically transfer to humans - given it's happening in one place means it's not surprising it happens elsewhere

Sure, but does it happen right next to a world renowned Ebola virus research center?

I would be willing to bet that if Ebola were a frequent issue in a country that had the ability to construct a world-class virus research center, there would be a research center very close to the locations where Ebola had a natural reservoir.

No matter how hard you yell it, correlation is not causation (and even when there is causation, the direction of the causation isn't always obvious).

Re: The Case Against the Covid-19 Lab Leak Theory

#109

"Ever since the SARS outbreak of 2002-03, after all, paper after paper and countless popular pieces have warned that, sooner or later, nature would produce the next big SARS." In 1995 Laurie Garrett warned about how the world could be brought to its knees by another airborne flu-like illness in "The Coming Plague" .[1] The first SARS and avian flu and swine flu, and CJD and mad cow disease were just more warnings tha…

Governments really need to start getting their shit together and stop blaming each other for their own mishandling (this will never happen I know). There is no point in trying to blame each other or cook up new regulations (enforcing regulation, particularly international regulation is just never going to happen). Quite frankly,most governments should seriously start considering how they will defend their citizens ag…

The big problem was GOVERNMENT, though.

Seriously, the mRNA vaccines were created in a few days once the seriousness of the virus was realized. And then held up for 9 months of testing because the government wouldn't allow challenge trials. We could have been vaccinating people a few months into the pandemic and instead we waited nearly a year to roll out the vaccine at scale.

Re: The Case Against the Covid-19 Lab Leak Theory

#110

The minute the PRC government destroyed the evidence, they lost the presumption of innocence. Let's also remember - we're dealing with very smart people who very well knew the price they were paying by not cooperating with the international community, and yet that path seemed more attractive than just "coming clean." I wonder what the judicial system would have to say if a murder was committed in my house, and there…

Yes, the cover up and hostility towards the lab leak hypothesis may actually be the strongest evidence for it.

Which is to say, not much. But we have no evidence for the natural origin story, and it's a somewhat strange coincidence that the initial outbreak was near a lab studying these very same kinds of viruses. Granted you might put such a lab in places where there are lots of bat viruses to be found, but that's still a much, much larger area than the city of Wuhan. The closest known wild virus came from a source 800 miles away. Draw a circle over a map of China including both Wuhan and that bat cave and you can see that quite clearly.

Combine that with the fact that Sars cov1 escaped labs in China to infect researchers not once, but at least twice, and the Bayesian calculation swings heavily to the lab leak hypothesis.

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