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How to get better at painting without painting anything (2015)

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Re: How to get better at painting without painting anything (2015)

#81
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right now there are students who have trouble opening up algebraic expressions or forget to cancel negatives in multiplication while doing exercises on advanced concepts. All for lack of practice.

Those kinds of kids were common 10, 20, 50, 100, and more years ago.

Now they are ubiquitous.

Downplaying it to 'dumb ones' is not helpful when they can solve polynomials without much trouble but are getting burned on concepts that should have been drilled down properly in middle school.

Re: How to get better at painting without painting anything (2015)

#82
post #22

> But drill isn’t popular. It’s widely seen as boring. Worse, there’s a body of opinion, especially in education, that considers it an ineffective way to practice. That’s a shame, because it’s the most effective way to build your skills. This resonated with me as I watch my kids go through school. Math used to be taught with more drill style. Now with common core every single problem is an epic quest of 10 frames and…

Math used to be taught with more drill style. Now with common core every single problem is an epic quest of 10 frames and double pluses. It seems so ridiculous. I'd rather them crush a worksheet of 20 problems that practices a single skill then 2 problems that try to include everything from reading to drawing just for a simple subtraction problem. The problem with these 20 problems of basically the same identical cha…

In reality the problem is more complicated and the issue is that the current media of teaching via worksheets and teachers is lacking and insufficient, which renders this debate obsolete. What you have is different parts, learning new stuff, practicing it, but also spaced repetition. Those need to be in balance with each other but also rely on cognitive overload, tiredness and motivation (among others) of the learner. So what you really need for a solution is software that replaces those work sheets and does a good job (as opposed to many of the current cheap learning apps) of giving you the right task at the right time. Eg. it knows that you have been drilling stuff and gotten good at it and so now its time for some more mixed stuff that could be paired with srs (stuff that needs refreshment). I think apps like kahn academy are good but could be improved and personally tried to build my own language learning flashcards app[0] after becoming frustrated with duolingo where I have a 2000 day streak.

0 - https://ling-academy.com/ It's a bit of a mess. I found that its pretty hard to build a language app.

Re: How to get better at painting without painting anything (2015)

#83

All of this advice is equally true with practicing a musical instrument. You will not get better if you just play songs/pieces fully over and over. You can, and often do, get worse. And it’s hard , because making music is what it’s all about. I don’t know who said this quote originally, but in the piano world, one says “practice doesn’t make perfect; practice makes permanent.”

I think playing songs / pieces does have value, especially if you're starting out, in that it trains your motor skills - finding the keys on a piano, strings on a guitar, etc. It won't make you a musician, but it'll get you up to party trick level. Anyway here's wonderwall.

Re: How to get better at painting without painting anything (2015)

#84
post #6

I’m not going to disagree with the author’s main point, I’m sure doing drills is very important. But I do question their personal example. When I was in high school, I played a lot of go. But then I stopped playing for a few years. When I started again, after shaking off the rust I was a much better player. And I wasn’t doing any “drills” during those years of off time. Sometimes I think we just need a fresh perspect…

There's much to be said about taking rests / breaks to let your brain process things without the repetition and pressure.

In a weird twist, I often find myself knowing more and being more confident about previous (work related) projects after I'm out of them, once I can look at things with hindsight and think about them. And I realize how much I actually know about the domain, to the point where I think "I should go back to that project now" (even if it wouldn't actually work for me like that).

Re: How to get better at painting without painting anything (2015)

#85

Recently I've been thinking the exact opposite things. Many novice artists get too hung up on doing "exercises", because they're easy, straightforward, and comfortable (compared to doing the real thing). They waste a lot of time without improving all that much, because repeating exercises out of context can quickly become mindless, people tend to lose sight of the real purpose (making good drawings/paintings), and in…

While watching an acrobat show, I came to the realization that there is probably a better way to develop skills.

These acrobats were realizing dangerous performances, where mistakes must not happen even when doing the show thousands of times. And also it must have been possible to practice it right on the first time.

My answer to that is imagination, search for the proper mindset, and switching to it.

You have to try to imagine the thinking of someone who can do things naturally.

It's kinda like in "the pretender" TV-show. It's one layer of indirection added to the more traditional "imitate the master" practicing technique.

Some tasks are best handled when you have a specific internal representation.

Often when you start from scratch, you don't have the right one, and through experience, blood and sweat, you refine it until you discover the representation that works well for the task.

But when you have a representation that kind of work but is missing something, you get stuck in plateau which practice (both "scrimmage" and "drill") only reinforce.

For example, with our acrobats, are they visualizing the actions in their head they are about to do ? Do they see themselves in 3D as a first person character, or in third player view ? Are they feeling the movements in their head ? Can they do the movements without doing them ? Can they create mental variations of the movements ? How do they handle the motion blur that our novice eye experience ? How do they evaluate the risks ?

Acrobats often are born into; and people do things without knowing exactly how they do them. So you'll have to practice observation to understand (how, why, when,...) they do what they do.

While practice is still necessary, it becomes a mere reality check for the performances you have mentally imagined doing a thousand times.

Re: How to get better at painting without painting anything (2015)

#86
post #60
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The current theory isn't particularly lacking, the average teacher (let alone layperson's) understanding of it is lacking. Plus there's dozens of rubbish theories that are sorely lacking so you have to find the researchers that actually do solid research. IIRC (see the above, it applies to random comments on the internet) drill work is more effective (but feels less effective to both teachers and students) if it's mi…

In first grade we were given a workbook for learning how to write the letters. There was one whole page of A, one page of B, etc. You had to write maybe 100 As in a row. The kids quickly figured out that the fastest way to do it was to first write the left slant 100 times, then the right slant 100 times and finally all the 100 crossbars. So yes, you do need a little variety to defeat such shortcuts.

According to the article this is actually a really good way for kids to learn and improve. The point being that just practicing the lines is hugely important.

Re: How to get better at painting without painting anything (2015)

#87
post #6

I’m not going to disagree with the author’s main point, I’m sure doing drills is very important. But I do question their personal example. When I was in high school, I played a lot of go. But then I stopped playing for a few years. When I started again, after shaking off the rust I was a much better player. And I wasn’t doing any “drills” during those years of off time. Sometimes I think we just need a fresh perspect…

I had to stop rock climbing for a year due to personal circumstances and to my surprise I was better when I went back than when I was practicing 2 to 3 times a week.

I think when COVID is over and people really go back to practicing their favourite sport, many will experience this.

Re: How to get better at painting without painting anything (2015)

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The science is wrong because I disagree" - ipaddr

They are not the only one, I see the same. Kids without math drills have problems in storing crucial bits of information in long-term memory and consequently fare worse at solving simple arithmetic problems than myself when I was much younger. I'm not talking about complex things but basic arithmetic, like multiplying digits, adding fractions or, more importantly, dealing with ratios. Drills give you a considerable a…

I have another peice of anecdata with my parents/grandparents. They grew up in the USSR and went through school there, drilling (according to them) was extremely common.

They can still remember some peoms verbatim over 70 years later (in my grandfathers case). And they still remember/understand pretty much all the math they were taught. When I was doing my Advanced Highers (final exams in Scotland) I was asking my parents for help and they could answer all the questions without looking things up.

I looked up the exam paper[0] I sat, I'm pretty sure there's no way I'd get an A again if I sat it right now without studying for it. But I'm pretty sure my parents still woudl.

[0] https://www.advancedhighermaths.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/201...

Re: How to get better at painting without painting anything (2015)

#89

> But drill isn’t popular. It’s widely seen as boring. Worse, there’s a body of opinion, especially in education, that considers it an ineffective way to practice. That’s a shame, because it’s the most effective way to build your skills. This resonated with me as I watch my kids go through school. Math used to be taught with more drill style. Now with common core every single problem is an epic quest of 10 frames and…

Resonates with me too. I'm studying Chinese full-time and the classroom format is extremely drill-heavy. Here's a sentence, now say it this other way, using this new grammar device that we just learned. Here's another, and another, and another. After that we _mostly_ rote memorize characters (mostly, because they do have fragments of meaning that you can reason about sometimes). We drill on reading and writing charac…

Yes, some kind of drilling is definitely necessary, the issue is that traditional drilling is not efficient and there is so much more to language learning.

I don't think traditional drilling doesn't work at all, it's just super inefficient and boring.

That said, I also kind of feel that dialogue with other students isn't that useful.

I don't know about English in Taiwan, but if it's similar to Mainland China then then many of them started with learning English when they were 3 or so. The level of English you get from that is rather disappointing.

Re: How to get better at painting without painting anything (2015)

#90
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is not a problem with the drill style per say but toxic teachers and parents. You can make someone drill without tormenting them for failing. I think doing drills is good if done in a supportive setting, but it is also and should not be the only way to teach.

Do you know any kid that signed up for math drills? It's nearly always imposed by parents or teachers.

My kid would be super happy with it. His teacher as a 'reward' for doing his language-related stuff on time/quicker, lets him do math worksheets
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