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The start-up code of conduct and ethics

jacquesmattheij.com

11–20 of 33 posts

Re: The start-up code of conduct and ethics

#11

These sound all nice and friendly, but they're not feasible for me. If you've paid me, use the service for a time, then ask me to delete all data associated with your account, I've got nothing to fight a chargeback with. Shutting down after losing a patent (or other) lawsuit, then open sourcing the aplicable software seems wrought of peril. 6 months notice is feasible for a paid service, but not so much for a free on…

> then ask me to delete all data associated with your account

You may not even have that option:

http://www.dataprotection.eu/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=Main.HU

As for keeping the history for anti-chargeback purposes, it is my understanding that you are allowed to keep username and log in data and your IPSP will have the rest of the information that you'd need to fight a chargeback.

Also, someone requesting deletion of their data would make it pretty easy to fight that chargeback because they're providing you with auxiliary proof (the request itself) that they've been active users of your site.

The patent claim is a good one, I'll have to think about that.

Keeping a free service 'up' without allowing new data to be entered in to the system post shutdown without support or development costs a very small fraction of what it would cost to run the service in an active way.

For example, Yahoo! claimed that running Geocities cost them tens of millions of dollars annually, and yet, somehow I can maintain a large fraction (how large a fraction we'll never know) of their accounts up and running for approximately $500 / month.

The problem with giving notice is that many people will never get your notice, even when given 6 months ahead of time.

Imagine dropbox shutting down their free accounts overnight. It's technically within their rights. Ditto google docs and a myriad of other services that people come to rely on.

Re: The start-up code of conduct and ethics

#12
A one-size-fits-all is not going to work, I think.

The correct model is probably something similar to the Creative Commons model -- create a few bundles of rights, let creators/site operators compose them, creating a 2x2 matrix of licenses or whatever.

For instance: 1) Ownership of content/derived rights 2) Persistence of terms through exit (bankruptcy, sale, change of control...) 3) Revocability (can never, can easily, or can after N day waiting period during which users may delete all data, or opt in/out of new terms...) 4) Law enforcement: we'll actively bend over/cooperate like eBay, or we will require warrants and resist to the extent legally allowed, or technical countermeasures, plus which jurisdictions (I'm usually fine with USA law, but wouldn't want my content under e.g. Saudi law) 5) ...

This matters more for power users and API users (developers) than for casual users, but I agree something like this is necessary.

Re: The start-up code of conduct and ethics

#14
post #13

This seems like an anti-pivot poison pill.

I would say the sweet spot for defining your users rights is right after you gain some major traction and before any kind of exit is even on the horizon. And definitely before other companies start to rely on you, and/or network effects have put you in a position where you can afford to screw people over.

Probably it would be a good idea to have your business model figured out as well.

A side effect of this is that it may force you to think a bit harder over whether you want to support this creation for an extended period, and that alone might be enlightening.

So, pivot to your hearts content, but when you feel you have a 'live one' define your users rights and stick to it.

Re: The start-up code of conduct and ethics

#15

These sound all nice and friendly, but they're not feasible for me. If you've paid me, use the service for a time, then ask me to delete all data associated with your account, I've got nothing to fight a chargeback with. Shutting down after losing a patent (or other) lawsuit, then open sourcing the aplicable software seems wrought of peril. 6 months notice is feasible for a paid service, but not so much for a free on…

> then ask me to delete all data associated with your account You may not even have that option: http://www.dataprotection.eu/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=Main.HU As for keeping the history for anti-chargeback purposes, it is my understanding that you are allowed to keep username and log in data and your IPSP will have the rest of the information that you'd need to fight a chargeback. Also, someone requesting deletion of thei…

> As for keeping the history for anti-chargeback purposes, it is my understanding that you are allowed to keep username and log in data and your IPSP will have the rest of the information that you'd need to fight a chargeback.

If I'm keeping your username, your login and usage history (likely IP address) to fight the chargeback, I haven't deleted all your data by a long shot.

> Keeping a free service 'up' without allowing new data to be entered in to the system post shutdown without support or development costs a very small fraction of what it would cost to run the service in an active way.

Keeping anything running has cost, you don't just stand up a machine, step back, and hope for the best. There's maintenance, patches, IDS work, etc. Hitting a "read only" flag in your software (presuming it exist) doesn't make the machine invulnerable.

Re: The start-up code of conduct and ethics

#16
post #9
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are being unrealistic about acquisition. I hear way too many discussions on HN about monetizing your products, and people looking for their big exit/payday. People are not going to give up their exit plan because of an idealistic "code of ethics" for their users.

I think we all speak for ourselves here. Maybe it is true that not many companies would require an acquirer to continue to run the service as it was at the moment of acquisition (or better!), but I think those that do want to make such a commitment to their end users should get a leg up. If someone offered to buy out the sites that I run in order to shut them down I would refuse.

Actually I think it would be cool to ask ~10 big acquirers, both of talent and of products/tech, to see how they'd feel about deals with these terms.

Google seemed ok with Etherpad running in parallel for a while. The concerns seem to be: * Acq wants to be able to develop their own products with the tech, less competition -- shutting off system supports that, but so does disabling new account creation on it, and making your own product superior. Some changes seem ok, some seem borderline (flickr -> yahoo login), but just shutting down a service is different.

* Wanting full resources of the team -- running the old site on autopilot

* If the old service is inherently unsustainable (patent/IP issues, negative marginal income, ...); the former might be a big deal (although YouTube won by having the Google lawhammer on their side), and the latter might not be a big deal if the absolute dollar value involved is low relative to the deal.

Even if a deal ends up being 5% less due to the requirement that the service stay operating after acq, if it makes user acq easier so you get 2x more users and thus a 2-10x higher valuation, it's win/win/win/win (acq, founders, investors, users).

Re: The start-up code of conduct and ethics

#17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> then ask me to delete all data associated with your account You may not even have that option: http://www.dataprotection.eu/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=Main.HU As for keeping the history for anti-chargeback purposes, it is my understanding that you are allowed to keep username and log in data and your IPSP will have the rest of the information that you'd need to fight a chargeback. Also, someone requesting deletion of thei…

> As for keeping the history for anti-chargeback purposes, it is my understanding that you are allowed to keep username and log in data and your IPSP will have the rest of the information that you'd need to fight a chargeback. If I'm keeping your username, your login and usage history (likely IP address) to fight the chargeback, I haven't deleted all your data by a long shot. > Keeping a free service 'up' without all…

> If I'm keeping your username, your login and usage history (likely IP address) to fight the chargeback, I haven't deleted all your data by a long shot.

I think you are approaching this in too literal a way.

IPSPs typically log IP addresses, usernames link accounts to payments, and are stored on both sides (with you and with the IPSP) anyway.

But your user uploading pictures, saving content, making spreadsheets and so on, that user data is the data that is most likely most relevant to the user.

Their email address is relevant too, if you plan to use it. If you delete their account but keep a log that the account was deleted at the request of email address 'x' mailing you from IP address 'y' and that that user had at the time of deletion logged a grand total of 64 hours on your service over a period of 90 days then that's just fine as far as I read the law.

Yes, there is a cost to keeping a free service alive post shutdown. And you probably should factor that cost in to your business plan when you start. And if maintaining a service in such a way that users can get their data out post shutdown (and possibly a migratory service or a deal with 'web.archive.org' to archive the site, which, ironically may be in violation of several countries' laws) is too expensive then you can wonder if that service is viable to begin with. Typically those costs are a very small fraction of what it would cost to run a service in an active mode.

I currently host 3 projects that are officially 'dead', their creators no longer felt that they were going to spend another dime on them and I feel that to do right by the users the small amount of money that it takes to 'keep the lights on' is far outweighed by the benefit to the users.

Re: The start-up code of conduct and ethics

#18
post #6

No offense, early adopters, but if you desire a SLA like this one from me, you'd better get moving because only one person will ever get one and my girlfriend looks like she is the odds-on favorite. This strikes me as optimizing for the somewhat quirky preference set of a group of people who do not pay money for software. (People who do pay money for software have an easy mechanism for determining what they are owed:…

Codes of Ethics are usually written to suit ideals, and not pragmatism. It's not expected that everyone will actually adhere to everything in a code of ethics---only that they would appreciate that these are "good things" in general, and try to implement them if they are practical.

Re: The start-up code of conduct and ethics

#20
post #12

A one-size-fits-all is not going to work, I think. The correct model is probably something similar to the Creative Commons model -- create a few bundles of rights, let creators/site operators compose them, creating a 2x2 matrix of licenses or whatever. For instance: 1) Ownership of content/derived rights 2) Persistence of terms through exit (bankruptcy, sale, change of control...) 3) Revocability (can never, can easi…

That is a very good idea!
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