Ask HN: How do SMBs afford such expensive software engineers in the US? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: How do SMBs afford such expensive software engineers in the US?

#81

Post by Sevii » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 5:50 PM UTC

denton-scratch wrote: post #78

Youden wrote: post #24

Fundamentally, software engineers aren't a commodity. They're not all created equal and they have their own desires and preferences which factor in to what they choose to do. The FAANGs in the US will hire basically anybody, provided that person passes their interview process and is willing to physically relocate to one of their offices, which are usually located in major cities that have high costs of living (e.g. B…

When I started, "software engineer" wasn't a job title. We did already have job-title inflation, though; when a programmer was promoted, they became an "assistant systems analyst", then a "systems analyst". The proper definition of a systems analyst at that time didn't even include programming computers! So what's an engineer? Outside of software, an engineer is a professional - a member of a professional body, licen…

We can’t go back unfortunately. Software is getting more complex both technically and legally. Professional licensing is coming in the next decade or two.

Re: Ask HN: How do SMBs afford such expensive software engineers in the US?

#82

Post by AtlasBarfed » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 7:03 PM UTC

AtlasBarfed wrote: post #51

SAAS exists to serve these companies pretty well. The cloud has helped even more with getting services procured for less than the granular cost of a full time employee. It's a big paradigm jump to go from SMB with mostly externalized functions/SAAS to getting economies of scale with your own major IT department, assets, and facilities. I've argued for years that MBAs need to be trained on the fundamentals of IT as mu…

I'd like to qualify my remarks on amazon: they are a very well run software/IT firm... from the persepective of competing IT execs in retail.

Really they have a CIO as a CEO, and that's the difference between them and their non-IT CEO competitors. Bezos tried to solve everything with software.

Re: Ask HN: How do SMBs afford such expensive software engineers in the US?

#83

Post by denton-scratch » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 8:33 PM UTC

Sevii wrote: post #81

denton-scratch wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I started, "software engineer" wasn't a job title. We did already have job-title inflation, though; when a programmer was promoted, they became an "assistant systems analyst", then a "systems analyst". The proper definition of a systems analyst at that time didn't even include programming computers! So what's an engineer? Outside of software, an engineer is a professional - a member of a professional body, licen…

We can’t go back unfortunately. Software is getting more complex both technically and legally. Professional licensing is coming in the next decade or two.

I'm totally cool with professional licensing for software engineers, and I agree it's coming (but "the next decade" seems optimistic - I've been expecting it for 30 years).

My gas-fitter is professionally-licensed. My electrician is professionally-licensed. My accountant is professionally-licensed. They have to be. But I'd hire a developer with a stellar record over one with a professional licence, unless the post was Compliance Officer or something.

I just don't expect such a licensed "software engineer" to be doing hands-dirty software development; they'll be managing the show. Hands-dirty developers need to know stuff you don't learn on training courses.

Re: Ask HN: How do SMBs afford such expensive software engineers in the US?

#84

Post by sgt » Tue, Jul 06, 2021, 9:42 AM UTC

KptMarchewa wrote: post #67

sgt wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty much everyone can afford a car these days. You're probably thinking of a new car .

Buying a car is only one part. You're probably true that pretty much anyone could buy a car, even if that's just an old Matiz. But also to maintain, insure and fuel it? No.

You would only get third party insurance, not full coverage. Then it will become much cheaper.

Re: Ask HN: How do SMBs afford such expensive software engineers in the US?

#85

Post by KptMarchewa » Tue, Jul 06, 2021, 2:09 PM UTC

sgt wrote: post #84

KptMarchewa wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Buying a car is only one part. You're probably true that pretty much anyone could buy a car, even if that's just an old Matiz. But also to maintain, insure and fuel it? No.

You would only get third party insurance, not full coverage. Then it will become much cheaper.

Yearly OC, as what it's called in Poland, is still about 50% of value of Matiz.

Re: Ask HN: How do SMBs afford such expensive software engineers in the US?

#86

Post by trcarney » Tue, Jul 06, 2021, 5:20 PM UTC

denton-scratch wrote: post #78

Youden wrote: post #24

Fundamentally, software engineers aren't a commodity. They're not all created equal and they have their own desires and preferences which factor in to what they choose to do. The FAANGs in the US will hire basically anybody, provided that person passes their interview process and is willing to physically relocate to one of their offices, which are usually located in major cities that have high costs of living (e.g. B…

When I started, "software engineer" wasn't a job title. We did already have job-title inflation, though; when a programmer was promoted, they became an "assistant systems analyst", then a "systems analyst". The proper definition of a systems analyst at that time didn't even include programming computers! So what's an engineer? Outside of software, an engineer is a professional - a member of a professional body, licen…

>Outside of software, an engineer is a professional - a member of a professional body, licensed to undertake specified design and construction work, and required to take regular training and re-licensing

Software engineering got its roots from electrical engineering and this isn't true for most electrical engineers. You only need to be licensed in a few subsets of electrical engineering (i.e. power production and distribution). All other areas don't require a license.

There is a difference between software engineers and programmers. I had it explained to me like this. If you spend more than 50% of your time programming, you can't call yourself a software engineer. A software engineer is supposed to spend most of their time designing and architecting a solution, testing assumptions, documenting the design process and conducting design reviews. This process is slow and tedious but if done correctly will save you a lot of headaches in the future.

Re: Ask HN: How do SMBs afford such expensive software engineers in the US?

#87

Post by sgt » Wed, Jul 07, 2021, 10:14 AM UTC

KptMarchewa wrote: post #85

sgt wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You would only get third party insurance, not full coverage. Then it will become much cheaper.

Yearly OC, as what it's called in Poland, is still about 50% of value of Matiz.

That is crazy. Seems you guys are being ripped off by the insurance companies!

Re: Ask HN: How do SMBs afford such expensive software engineers in the US?

#88

Post by softwaredoug » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 3:30 AM UTC

I’m perplexed by the opposite. Why do SWE salaries stay so low on average in developed countries outside the US? (Or maybe they don’t? Or maybe it’s not an apples to apples comparison?)