World’s largest ever four day week trial in Iceland ‘overwhelming success’ • Hacker News Board

Re: World’s largest ever four day week trial in Iceland ‘overwhelming success’

#111

Post by cecilpl2 » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 1:37 PM UTC

legulere wrote: post #76

cecilpl2 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you leave early on the productive days, would you stay back longer on the days you aren't doing so well? No, I do exactly the opposite. I work longer when I'm super productive, and I cut out early when I'm not having a good day. It seems obvious that you'd try to optimize for working the hours when you are most effective. > And how do you know if you were actually very productive one day and not that the task wa…

But why? What benefit do you get from giving your best days to the company and not use them for yourself? Usually you don’t get anything in exchange for working hard.

Sometimes I have days where I'm just really focused on work problems.

Sometimes I have days where I'm killing it in the gym or on the track.

Sometimes I have days where I just want to work on my garden, or sit and read, or spend 4 hours on an awesome dinner.

I assume most people have rhythms or cycles like this.

Thankfully I have a job that doesn't measure daily output, but instead looks at productivity over a longer period of time, so I can work towards a life where I'm always doing the thing I'm best at, at that moment.

A day where the work I've been doing just comes together like magic isn't transferable to a personal project.

Re: World’s largest ever four day week trial in Iceland ‘overwhelming success’

#112

Post by ashtonkem » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 2:04 PM UTC

SilverRed wrote: post #32

ashtonkem wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That argument was used against a lot of things that turned out to be a good thing, like the 40 hour work week. What’s your suggesting other than naysaying this trial?

They raise a good point. I would expect a huge boost in productivity during a trial period as workers are hyped about the change and want to prove it works. But that they may eventually wear out and return to normal but with less hours now. I don't think OP is suggesting that the findings are outright wrong, but that long term studies are required to know exactly how things play out. We have so many short term trial…

Why would you expect a huge productivity boost when reducing working hours? Isn’t this setting the bar unreasonably high? Heck, isn’t cutting hours and maintaining output actually a net increase in per hour productivity?

Also, why is productivity even the golden standard here? Why can’t we consider the well being of actual people in this discussion?

Re: World’s largest ever four day week trial in Iceland ‘overwhelming success’

#113

Post by ashtonkem » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 2:07 PM UTC

BuyMyBitcoins wrote: post #57

SilverRed wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They raise a good point. I would expect a huge boost in productivity during a trial period as workers are hyped about the change and want to prove it works. But that they may eventually wear out and return to normal but with less hours now. I don't think OP is suggesting that the findings are outright wrong, but that long term studies are required to know exactly how things play out. We have so many short term trial…

I can attest to a pattern of management introducing a change and realizing substantial benefits that don’t hold up over time. For whatever reason, the initial boost isn’t sustained and some other change is introduced in order to boost numbers and the process repeats. Now I personally would love a shorter work week. I actually think much of the 8-hour workday is chock full of non productive time that can be cut safely…

The trial ran for years. That’s well outside the range of “finicky management trialed something and we got a short term boost” effects.

Re: World’s largest ever four day week trial in Iceland ‘overwhelming success’

#114

Post by nickd2001 » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 2:09 PM UTC

I've been working 4 days a week for the last 10 yrs, at 3 different workplaces, for a proportionate drop in salary. To be allowed this, I asked at interview time, though I have, and have had, colleagues who started 5 days then dropped to 4. Seems to me if both employer and employee are any good at what they do, its a win-win. The only thing is I guess many people don't want to lose 10-20% (depending what final hours end up as) salary. Which I would understand, if it were not the case that software jobs pay well above the average wage (in the UK this is... of course in the US its even more above the average). I suppose you also have to have a robust skillset to feel confident to ask for less hours in the first place, and not worry about not being there 1 day a week while things move on. And , perhaps not seek seniority as much.. which I suppose makes the salary hit higher... but even then.. we only live once, kids are only small once, friends, family people you wanna see instead of always being at work don't live for ever either, you can't take the £/$ with you when you die etc. sometimes as a couple it makes sense for both to do 3 or 4 days then you see more of each other, sometimes the 2cnd parent works a bit more than they would have if the 1st was 5-day full time, which is tax advantageous

Re: World’s largest ever four day week trial in Iceland ‘overwhelming success’

#115

Post by _benj » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 4:03 PM UTC

hellbannedguy wrote: post #104

_benj wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m also quite interested in what brings you to HN. Don’t get me wrong, welcome! But it’s quite interesting seeing somebody here that is not the stereotypical tech/business/startup type

I've been here forever. I'm glad some of you put up with me. I'm pretty lonely, and this is my only social outlet. I have had many careers. I've gone to Chiropractic School until I realized it was basically Placebo. I've been a Electrician. I've been a telecommunications guy. I've been a state security guard. I've been a Mechanic whom specialized in electrical problems. I had a used car lot. I was even a Realator for…

putting up with you? nah, I'm glad you are here! HN can sometimes sound like an echo chamber.

I hear you, I've been through a few careers myself before landing on software engineering, but at the end of the day I've come to realize that there's no heaven in this earth and software engineering is certainly not one.

For me is more like what I do for a living, but definitively not my life (although some employers would like it to be)

About adding, come on, having a different and varied perspective in invaluable to the community.

Again, glad you are here sir and if there's something you think a software engineer can help you with shot me a message, email on the profile.

Re: World’s largest ever four day week trial in Iceland ‘overwhelming success’

#116

Post by AnimalMuppet » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 5:41 PM UTC

prawn wrote: post #87

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many of us work 40 hours in 5 days. There are 168 hours in a week. That's 24% of the week, not 71%.

I assume they're excluding sleep, which isn't unreasonable in this discussion.

Still no. 8 hours of sleep a day leaves you 16 hours a day, so 112 hours a week. 40 hours is 36% of 112. And, yeah, you could throw in commute time and get a higher percentage. It still wouldn't get you 71%, though.

What skersten did is 5/7 = 71%, as if any day you work on is totally lost to you for any other purpose.

Re: World’s largest ever four day week trial in Iceland ‘overwhelming success’

#117

Post by jackson1442 » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 6:26 PM UTC

kqr wrote: post #60

jackson1442 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We track hours at my job but it’s not anything super granular. We have to bill clients for hours, so we track them ourselves but it basically comes down to getting 40 hours-worth of work done each week. I basically just figure out what percent of each day I spent on each project and apportion my timecard appropriately. While it’d be nice to not track, it works well enough. I make hourly but can work as much (or as li…

> We have to bill clients for hours, so we track them ourselves You do not need to track hours to bill clients for their hours. This myth is awfully demotivating for so many people I hate that it still is the default. > I basically just figure out what percent of each day I spent on each project and apportion my timecard appropriately. And you've basically figured out the better way on your own. As Tippett figured ou…

I don’t find it demeaning at all- in fact it gives me more flexibility than I’d have most other companies. I’m still a college student, so I’m not full-time all year, but my position doesn’t change at all. All I have to do to go “part time” is bill fewer hours since I am allowed to work as few or as many hours as I want.

And it’s not like I have to clock in/out or anything. It’s just a simple form I fill out at the end of my day that lists out hours per task on each project (and each “task” corresponds to a role, so it’s only one line-item per project).

The alternatives you proposed sound awfully like micromanagement though.

Re: World’s largest ever four day week trial in Iceland ‘overwhelming success’

#118

Post by Hydraulix989 » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 8:29 PM UTC

hellbannedguy wrote: post #104

_benj wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m also quite interested in what brings you to HN. Don’t get me wrong, welcome! But it’s quite interesting seeing somebody here that is not the stereotypical tech/business/startup type

I've been here forever. I'm glad some of you put up with me. I'm pretty lonely, and this is my only social outlet. I have had many careers. I've gone to Chiropractic School until I realized it was basically Placebo. I've been a Electrician. I've been a telecommunications guy. I've been a state security guard. I've been a Mechanic whom specialized in electrical problems. I had a used car lot. I was even a Realator for…

Your unique perspective alone is something you add. Thanks for sticking around!

Re: World’s largest ever four day week trial in Iceland ‘overwhelming success’

#119

Post by jimmygrapes » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 10:48 PM UTC

secfirstmd wrote: post #92

sandworm101 wrote: post #7

I work in a field (military) where "overtime" isn't a thing. We can and do work 24+hour shifts without any extra pay. Even during peacetime, if we need to work 16-hour days every day for a month we can do that without any financial cost. We can also be sent home at noon every day without diminishing our wages a penny. That absolute flexibility does not reduce stress. With no standard office hours we face constant neg…

Ironically the military is one of the worse places for usage and wastage of time. There is tons of accountability for some stuff ("How much diesel did you put in that jeep?") but very little for people's time ("Let's have 300 infantry here an hour earlier than necessary before an event, even though it costs X per hour per person for them to be standing around doing nothing.) It's also the same around some safety stuf…

The key here is that military members are salaried; the situation where they are told to stand around for x hours doing nothing changes nothing financially. It might make the people upset, but what can they realistically do? No show is punishable more strictly than a civilian speeding ticket, AWOL is potentially akin to a DUI or murder charge. And it's rare! Why is that? Because the vast majority are indoctrinated? Or because they truly believe? Somewhere in between? What makes it work (because it does work, usually)?

Without getting too political the underlying answer, in my experienced opinion, is not "I have no choice" but rather "this gives me something to do that matters" even when it isn't "what I want to be doing right now."

Re: World’s largest ever four day week trial in Iceland ‘overwhelming success’

#120

Post by mech422 » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 11:29 PM UTC

machinehermiter wrote: post #105

koch wrote: post #54

It's so weird to me to see people argue against a shorter work week. > I enjoy working 5 days a week, it gives me more time to ... Ok, by all means, keep doing that? If you have this position you are probably already working on the weekend anyway. You can live (thrive, even!) in a society that has a 4 day week and still work 5 days. Go for it. > It'll never happen / It's a pipe dream So was women's rights, civil righ…

IMO there is an equilibrium problem. I really have no problem working 45 hours a week. I am not changing to 36 hours a week while a co-worker works 45 and then the co-worker is the one who ends up getting promoted. I am not working in a coal mine or digging ditches that my body is breaking down after 35 hours. I am perfectly capable of 45 high quality hours a week of mental work a week that I enjoy doing. That is wha…

Just wow...

Sounds like you need better employers and more interesting friends. And perhaps some realization that not everyone has the same demands on their time.