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Hydrogen fuel cell cars (2020)

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Re: Hydrogen fuel cell cars (2020)

#131

Post by drewg123 »

_ea1k wrote: post #126
drewg123 wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've taken multiple ~1000mi road trips in my Tesla. Charging typically adds ~2 hours to such a trip (14hrs -> 16+ hrs). I'm an "eat in the car and stop only for fuel" road tripper, so a ~30-40 minute stop every ~2-3 hours is far worse than an 3-5min stop every 4-5 hours. What's especially frustrating is what happens when I arrive at my destination, where I don't have access to charging and the nearest Tesla superchar…

I know what you mean there. Destination charging is currently the biggest weakness in the EV world, IMO. I'd love for every hotel and tourist destination to have L2 charging.

The most frustrating thing is that my destination is a friend's urban condo. They share a parking garage and valet with a hotel. There are destination chargers, and the valet will charge your car for you. But only if you're a hotel guest; the chargers are not available to condo residents.

Re: Hydrogen fuel cell cars (2020)

#132

Post by new_realist »

shafyy wrote: post #128
natmaka wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Efficiency is not really a concern if hydrogen is "produced" during peaks of some "sources" (mainly solar, wind): the surplus of energy, which today is a burden, will be used to obtain hydrogen. Producing hydrogen may solve the "intermittence" challenge.

Charging batteries with solar and wind is much more efficient than producing hydrogen. Why would you not charge batteries during peaks?

Because batteries are laughably costly for long term energy storage. It’s not even close; batteries will never be used for anything but short term storage.

Re: Hydrogen fuel cell cars (2020)

#133

Post by donkeyd »

aidenn0 wrote: post #113
theluketaylor wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For passenger vehicle road trips charging time is already into "doesn't matter" territory for a number of models. I have taken a 1000 km+ trip in a BEV that I used to take in gas vehicles. We didn't have to stop more often or stay any longer than we would have with gasoline. Really think about the time you spend stationary when stopping for fuel on a road trip. It's not just pumping fuel, you also go to the bathroom,…

It definitely takes longer west of the Mississippi river in the US. Mountains with 80MPH (130 km/h) speed limits mean the range is far shorter than typical freeway diving, which makes the fact that you need to stop more often, and for longer (gas cars have a typical 330 mile range, 1 l.6 longer than that Ionic), really add up. [edit] I will soon be diving 1600km. Google suggests the route will take 14h. I expect to m…

> I will soon be diving 1600km. Google suggests the route will take 14h. I expect to make it in 15. Friends with Teslas suggest it would take nearly 20.

Google doesn't account for stops required for toilet breaks, eating and drinking. Of course, you can just not drink, so you don't have to pee. You can eat while driving even though that's isn't a good idea from a safety standpoint. You can skip taking any breaks and get tired, which is also a bad idea from a safety standpoint.

It also depends on the available charging infrastructure, of which I have no clue at your destination.

In my own experience with driving about 1200 km with regular breaks, it took about an hour longer than it did with my diesel. It just took more planning. Most times, a charging stop meant peeing, drinking a coffee and then the car would be finished charging. The biggest issue was that some chargers aren't near a rest stop.

Re: Hydrogen fuel cell cars (2020)

#134

Post by boringg »

dale_glass wrote: post #38

Hydrogen almost certainly won't go anywhere, in my opinion. * The efficiency compared to battery tech is horrendous. * Hydrogen is effectively a storage technology -- we have to generate it and compress it. Which combined with the above means that charging a hydrogen car will always be more expensive than putting the same amount of usable energy into a battery powered car. * Let's not forget that the cheapest way of…

Red Herring in that --> Green hydrogen + Solar + Wind + Energy Storage are all important components of the future energy portfolio as we deleverage traditional O&G.

They serve different functions and should all be targeted aggressively.

I agree a Hydrogen car is a long way away though. Many more viable options in the near term.

And electrolysis and plasma based hydrogen from renewable natural gas coupled with renewable energy are going to be cost-competitive with SMR based hydrogen very soon. Faster than anyone thinks.

Re: Hydrogen fuel cell cars (2020)

#135

Post by boringg »

new_realist wrote: post #132
shafyy wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Charging batteries with solar and wind is much more efficient than producing hydrogen. Why would you not charge batteries during peaks?

Because batteries are laughably costly for long term energy storage. It’s not even close; batteries will never be used for anything but short term storage.

Untrue - long-term energy storage options are being targeted by deep pocketed capital. E.g. Form Energy and Vanadium technologies.

LiON batteries can't do seasonal though - short term only.

Re: Hydrogen fuel cell cars (2020)

#136

Post by new_realist »

epistasis wrote: post #59
larshen wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Electric cars weigh more and accelerate faster. Consequently tires and road sealing is worn more. Hydrogen cars do not weigh more.

I don't see that being generally true. For example, the Toyota Mirai weighs 4300 lbs to the Tesla Model 3 weighing 4000 pounds: https://www.caranddriver.com/toyota/mirai/specs https://www.caranddriver.com/tesla/model-3/specs As far as acceleration, that's just a design parameter, as both are driven by electric motors. I'm surprised the Mirai can't perform better given it's extra weight.

The Mirai offers more range; it’s not apples to apples. FCEVs do have some constant overheads around the fuel stack weight.

Re: Hydrogen fuel cell cars (2020)

#137

Post by epistasis »

b112 wrote: post #96
pkphilip wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That covers only the energy spent on mining etc but not the environmental impact of digging up entire country sides. https://www.wired.co.uk/article/lithium-batteries-environmen...

Steel is reused, car wreckers strip cars, crush the steel, and off it goes to be made into girders or something. What's more worrying is battery recycling. Toxoc batteries. So far, The West's plan has been to ship them to poor countries, which tend to just bury them. This can be resolved, but will it be? I say this to anyone claiming to be green, unless you know 100% how your product can be recycled, with concrete, i…

Shipping lithium ion batteries is expensive, because they weigh so much. And no, there's no plan to ship them to poor countries, that's just a fabrication, based on nothing. It's quite likely that battery production will be performed very close to fins assembly, because of the low price of batteries per pound, especially compared to something that does get supped a lot, like solar PV panels. Long distance shipping of batteries would add significantly to their cost.

In reality, lithium ion battery recycling is baked into this supply chain from the start. There are many startups eager to recycle batteries, the biggest challenge is that there isn't any substantial amount to recycle at the moment. Manufacturing rejects are one of the prime inputs to current battery recyclers.

Re: Hydrogen fuel cell cars (2020)

#138

Post by theshrike79 »

_ea1k wrote: post #123
jackthezipper wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While inefficiency is indeed a problem, I feel like a lot of people overlook the one huge pro hydrogen has over batteries, namely charging time. Of course this might not be important for the daily commute, or 99% of the vehicles' use. But for that remaining 1% it _is_ a huge deal. And most people buy cars to fulfill a 100% of their needs, not 99%. Now I should say, I know basically nothing about battery tech. But unl…

You aren't wrong, but it still leaves Hydrogen in a weird place in the market. With gasoline, you have to go weekly for your regularly commute. It can be annoying, but the upside is that you only have to stop for 5 minutes on a long trip! With EVs, you just charge at home or the office which is really convenient. But the downside, is that those 5 minute stops become 25+ minute stops and you typically have at least 1…

The Toyota Mirai consumes about 1kg of hydrogen per 100km. In Germany, the government subsidised price for hydrogen is 9.50€/kg.

That’s expensive as all hell.

With hydrogen you get: fast refuels (if the station has pressurized itself after the last customer), good range, but the cost is redonculous and the distribution is nonexistent in most countries.

There are more Teslas in space than there are publicly available hydrogen refueling stations in Finland :D

Re: Hydrogen fuel cell cars (2020)

#139

Post by theshrike79 »

natmaka wrote: post #127
dale_glass wrote: post #38

Hydrogen almost certainly won't go anywhere, in my opinion. * The efficiency compared to battery tech is horrendous. * Hydrogen is effectively a storage technology -- we have to generate it and compress it. Which combined with the above means that charging a hydrogen car will always be more expensive than putting the same amount of usable energy into a battery powered car. * Let's not forget that the cheapest way of…

Efficiency is not really a concern if hydrogen is "produced" during peaks of some "sources" (mainly solar, wind): the surplus of energy, which today is a burden, will be used to obtain hydrogen. Producing hydrogen may solve the "intermittence" challenge.

Hydrogen is a good choice for storing peak power from renewables.

Distributing all that highly flammable high pressure blow-up juice around the world for consumer use is another matter.

Re: Hydrogen fuel cell cars (2020)

#140

Post by aillarra »

Black101 wrote: post #115
dale_glass wrote: post #38

Hydrogen almost certainly won't go anywhere, in my opinion. * The efficiency compared to battery tech is horrendous. * Hydrogen is effectively a storage technology -- we have to generate it and compress it. Which combined with the above means that charging a hydrogen car will always be more expensive than putting the same amount of usable energy into a battery powered car. * Let's not forget that the cheapest way of…

> Hydrogen is effectively a storage technology a lot like batteries and gas tanks

Hydrogen, like electricity and batteries, is an energy vector: you spend more energy producing that form than what you get from it.

Fossil fuels in general (maybe not shale oil) are sources, since you get more energy than what you spend. So, their energy return on energy invested (EROEI) is positive.

In this regard, we're facing diminishing returns, the low hanging fruit is long gone. This, plus resource scarcity, is going to be a huge limiting factor to growth…

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