I'm surprised no one has mentioned the cost as a major downside of hydrogen fuel cell cars. The Honda clarity was set to be priced at roughly $350,000 for something that looks very much like a civic.
Hydrogen fuel cell cars (2020)
121–130 of 207 posts
Re: Hydrogen fuel cell cars (2020)
#122Car maker's attraction for fuel cells is that they neatly replace the internal combustion engine with another large, heavy, hot mechanism that continues to require about the same amount of ongoing maintenance. So the automaker's balance sheet remains about the same but now it's green. As Musk pointed out some years ago, hydrogen is not so much a fuel as it is an energy storage medium. Right out of the gate creating t…
People talk about hooking cars up to the grid, and charging them during times of excess power, and then selling that power back during peak. Yet, that shorten battery lifespan a lot (imagine a car charged weekly to get around town, now discharged/charged daily... battery life is now 1/7th). There is also loss during charging, and discharge, loss in power lines too. Meanwhile, you could create h2 right at the power pl…
Cycling batteries small percentages around mid level charges does almost nothing to battery life. Already, it's expected that we will soon have car batteries that outlast the rest of the car, with million miles lifetimes.
Plus, there's a specific cost to the battery life, that can be calculated, and evaluated against the gains from arbitraging electricity prices.
If batteries are economical on the grid, and they are increasingly replacing natural gas peakers for cost reasons, then car batteries will be a huge resource that is an economic win for car owners and for electricity rate payers.
Re: Hydrogen fuel cell cars (2020)
#123Hydrogen almost certainly won't go anywhere, in my opinion. * The efficiency compared to battery tech is horrendous. * Hydrogen is effectively a storage technology -- we have to generate it and compress it. Which combined with the above means that charging a hydrogen car will always be more expensive than putting the same amount of usable energy into a battery powered car. * Let's not forget that the cheapest way of…
While inefficiency is indeed a problem, I feel like a lot of people overlook the one huge pro hydrogen has over batteries, namely charging time. Of course this might not be important for the daily commute, or 99% of the vehicles' use. But for that remaining 1% it _is_ a huge deal. And most people buy cars to fulfill a 100% of their needs, not 99%. Now I should say, I know basically nothing about battery tech. But unl…
You aren't wrong, but it still leaves Hydrogen in a weird place in the market.
With gasoline, you have to go weekly for your regularly commute. It can be annoying, but the upside is that you only have to stop for 5 minutes on a long trip!
With EVs, you just charge at home or the office which is really convenient. But the downside, is that those 5 minute stops become 25+ minute stops and you typically have at least 1 more of them. On top of that, the locations aren't as prevalent which increases planning needs.
With Hydrogen, you get the negative of weekly stopping, the negative of fewer locations, and the only benefit is that it can be refilled... almost as well as a gasoline for about the same $$.
So why would I choose hydrogen over either other choice?
Re: Hydrogen fuel cell cars (2020)
#124HFCs are a scam designed to make oil investors think that Shell and Exxon will have a role in the electric transportation future. The notion that we are better off turning 3x the CNG into hydrogen fuel than burning 1x the CNG to charge a battery is absurd.
Re: Hydrogen fuel cell cars (2020)
#125Earlier quoted context omitted.
For passenger vehicle road trips charging time is already into "doesn't matter" territory for a number of models. I have taken a 1000 km+ trip in a BEV that I used to take in gas vehicles. We didn't have to stop more often or stay any longer than we would have with gasoline. Really think about the time you spend stationary when stopping for fuel on a road trip. It's not just pumping fuel, you also go to the bathroom,…
It definitely takes longer west of the Mississippi river in the US. Mountains with 80MPH (130 km/h) speed limits mean the range is far shorter than typical freeway diving, which makes the fact that you need to stop more often, and for longer (gas cars have a typical 330 mile range, 1 l.6 longer than that Ionic), really add up. [edit] I will soon be diving 1600km. Google suggests the route will take 14h. I expect to m…
Driving at the fastest allowed speed for long duration isn't a good bet with BEV. Usually you'll get shorter trip time by driving at 110km/h and skipping a charge.
Re: Hydrogen fuel cell cars (2020)
#126Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't think the difference between 10 and 15 minutes is enough to cause a huge problem in those 1% of situations. There are a lot of happy EV customers that go on multi-day road trips, just as they would in a gas car, without issue. I'm one of them, and will never go back to a fuel based car. That extra five minutes on road trips is far far far less than the amount of extra time that has cars take day to day, needi…
I've taken multiple ~1000mi road trips in my Tesla. Charging typically adds ~2 hours to such a trip (14hrs -> 16+ hrs). I'm an "eat in the car and stop only for fuel" road tripper, so a ~30-40 minute stop every ~2-3 hours is far worse than an 3-5min stop every 4-5 hours. What's especially frustrating is what happens when I arrive at my destination, where I don't have access to charging and the nearest Tesla superchar…
I know what you mean there. Destination charging is currently the biggest weakness in the EV world, IMO. I'd love for every hotel and tourist destination to have L2 charging.
Re: Hydrogen fuel cell cars (2020)
#127Hydrogen almost certainly won't go anywhere, in my opinion. * The efficiency compared to battery tech is horrendous. * Hydrogen is effectively a storage technology -- we have to generate it and compress it. Which combined with the above means that charging a hydrogen car will always be more expensive than putting the same amount of usable energy into a battery powered car. * Let's not forget that the cheapest way of…
Efficiency is not really a concern if hydrogen is "produced" during peaks of some "sources" (mainly solar, wind): the surplus of energy, which today is a burden, will be used to obtain hydrogen. Producing hydrogen may solve the "intermittence" challenge.
Re: Hydrogen fuel cell cars (2020)
#128Hydrogen almost certainly won't go anywhere, in my opinion. * The efficiency compared to battery tech is horrendous. * Hydrogen is effectively a storage technology -- we have to generate it and compress it. Which combined with the above means that charging a hydrogen car will always be more expensive than putting the same amount of usable energy into a battery powered car. * Let's not forget that the cheapest way of…
Efficiency is not really a concern if hydrogen is "produced" during peaks of some "sources" (mainly solar, wind): the surplus of energy, which today is a burden, will be used to obtain hydrogen. Producing hydrogen may solve the "intermittence" challenge.
Charging batteries with solar and wind is much more efficient than producing hydrogen. Why would you not charge batteries during peaks?
Re: Hydrogen fuel cell cars (2020)
#129Earlier quoted context omitted.
While inefficiency is indeed a problem, I feel like a lot of people overlook the one huge pro hydrogen has over batteries, namely charging time. Of course this might not be important for the daily commute, or 99% of the vehicles' use. But for that remaining 1% it _is_ a huge deal. And most people buy cars to fulfill a 100% of their needs, not 99%. Now I should say, I know basically nothing about battery tech. But unl…
For passenger vehicle road trips charging time is already into "doesn't matter" territory for a number of models. I have taken a 1000 km+ trip in a BEV that I used to take in gas vehicles. We didn't have to stop more often or stay any longer than we would have with gasoline. Really think about the time you spend stationary when stopping for fuel on a road trip. It's not just pumping fuel, you also go to the bathroom,…
>Extremely fast charging [...] can charge 10-80% in 18 minutes, which is enough to travel around 330 km. That's roughly 3 hours of driving in most counties.
This is not very impressive, and exactly where I see hydrogen have the upper hand. I suppose it's a matter of opinion, but _having_ to stop for 20 minutes every 3 hours isn't ideal at all for me.
Re: Hydrogen fuel cell cars (2020)
#130Hydrogen almost certainly won't go anywhere, in my opinion. * The efficiency compared to battery tech is horrendous. * Hydrogen is effectively a storage technology -- we have to generate it and compress it. Which combined with the above means that charging a hydrogen car will always be more expensive than putting the same amount of usable energy into a battery powered car. * Let's not forget that the cheapest way of…
You forgot safety. Hydrogen poses some serious dangers as it is odorless and colorless if it leaks. It is very easy to ignite and it is explosive at a wide range of mixtures with oxygen. [0] An hydrogen leak in an underground parking garage will be a very dangerous situation. Obviously any dense concentration of energy will be dangerous. The gasoline in a traditional car is also highly flammable (though less likely t…
Odorless / colorless -- same as natural gas. Just drop in a tracer chemical.