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Canada battles more than 180 wildfires with hundreds dead in heat wave

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Re: Canada battles more than 180 wildfires with hundreds dead in heat wave

#21

Post by dukeofdoom »

fouc wrote: post #15
elric wrote: post #3

And yet we'll continue to treat climate change as an inconvenience that can be addressed in 20 years, when - to quote Alex Steffen - we're not yet ready for what's already happened. https://alexsteffen.substack.com/p/were-not-yet-ready-for-wh...

Nice read. Covid-19 is another example of discontinuity, I'm surprised the author didn't mention that. Perhaps covid-19 prepared us for dealing with the larger discontinuity of climate change.

covid-19 was a test run for communist shortages. If you like waiting in lines, because the shelves are going to be empty. Then I suppose its good prep. Nobody except ideologues want that. Regular people want prosperity and abundance. Shortages tend to make life harder and kill people. When you need to jerry rig solutions to simple problems due to lack/restrictions of availability of products. Ontario locked down the dollar store during covid, so you couldn't buy even things like a flashlight. I can't imagine how many poor people ended up hurting themselves as a result. Also the terrible erosion of civil liberties, and empowering of authoritarian mandates.

Re: Canada battles more than 180 wildfires with hundreds dead in heat wave

#22

Post by 0xB31B1B »

jhgfddjn wrote: post #13
poutine wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lead by example? If you think China gives a crap about your example you’re horrendously naive.

Especially when you consider the economic impacts of "going first" it puts the CCP in a position where they're likely to gain the economic output you've banned, and then use that to gain even more of an upper hand against you

What are you talking about. China has already “gone first” they drove solar costs down below fossil fuel energy production cost. The change to green energy and decarbonization is a huge Keynesian economic stimulus. Decarbonizing is not about impoverishing yourself it’s about modernizing everything with tools that are demonstrably better in almost every way using government backed debt. It’s going to be a huge driver of GDP growth for the next 25-50 years. The political blocker here is that a lot of members of the capital class are very invested in the current fossil fuel energy production paradigm and will have relatively less wealth on the other side of this transition.

The reality here is we can and should use a nearly infinite amount of debt to finance decarbonization. Debt is “borrowing money from the future” and do you think anyone 50 years from now will be saying “I think we should have spent less money on decarbonzing?”, absolutely not. There is no world in which we can muscle the political will to spend that much money today, so for all intents and purposes consider it an unlimited credit line.

Re: Canada battles more than 180 wildfires with hundreds dead in heat wave

#23

Post by slgeorge »

ipaddr wrote: post #7
elric wrote: post #3

And yet we'll continue to treat climate change as an inconvenience that can be addressed in 20 years, when - to quote Alex Steffen - we're not yet ready for what's already happened. https://alexsteffen.substack.com/p/were-not-yet-ready-for-wh...

There is an inconvenient truth we all avoid when we throw out climate change. There is nothing you can do to stop climate change. If you stopped all Canadians from producing any greenhouse gases the wildfires will continue and no one will have noticed. When two countries are producing the vast majority you are at their mercy. If Canada wants to bully, bribe or shame a country into submission it has to get bigger and…

OK, let's say I accept your framing ...

What is your proposal or suggestion?

Or are you in a nihilist mood.

Re: Canada battles more than 180 wildfires with hundreds dead in heat wave

#24

Post by chmod775 »

poutine wrote: post #10
goodcanadian wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is such a thing as leading by example. It is imperfect, to be sure, but it does have an effect. At the moment, Canada is one of the worst countries in per capita greenhouse gas emissions, so perhaps, we can try to do a bit better before blaming other countries. Someone has to go first.

Lead by example? If you think China gives a crap about your example you’re horrendously naive.

Naive is only considering the absolute amount of emissions within some arbitrarily drawn lines on a map.

The only metric that is fair, and countries like China will consider fair, is per-capita emissions. A Canadian can't justify causing three times as many CO2 emissions as a Chinese by virtue of being Canadian alone.

Re: Canada battles more than 180 wildfires with hundreds dead in heat wave

#25

Post by fy20 »

heron88 wrote: post #5

One practical solution to climate change may be to shut everything down for one day each week, kind of like some places did in response to the pandemic. Close all non-essential business, restrict all non-essential travel, etc. In addition to giving our planet a much needed day off each week, it’d probably go a long way towards improving our mental health.

The UK had a three day week for a few months in the 1970s in response to coal shortages and an economic crisis:

https://www.theblackoutreport.co.uk/2021/01/06/three-day-wee...

Re: Canada battles more than 180 wildfires with hundreds dead in heat wave

#26

Post by jl6 »

heron88 wrote: post #5

One practical solution to climate change may be to shut everything down for one day each week, kind of like some places did in response to the pandemic. Close all non-essential business, restrict all non-essential travel, etc. In addition to giving our planet a much needed day off each week, it’d probably go a long way towards improving our mental health.

Carbon in the atmosphere is cumulative. Shutting down for one day a week just means accumulating at a slightly slower rate. We need to shut down carbon emission 7 days a week.

Re: Canada battles more than 180 wildfires with hundreds dead in heat wave

#27

Post by hn_throwaway_99 »

chmod775 wrote: post #24
poutine wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lead by example? If you think China gives a crap about your example you’re horrendously naive.

Naive is only considering the absolute amount of emissions within some arbitrarily drawn lines on a map. The only metric that is fair, and countries like China will consider fair, is per-capita emissions. A Canadian can't justify causing three times as many CO2 emissions as a Chinese by virtue of being Canadian alone.

Per-capita emissions may be fair if it looked at where products are consumed, but in my experience the data only looks at emissions produced divided by population. Producer countries like China and especially Canada with their energy industry will look worse than they actually are because other countries have effectively outsourced their CO2 emissions to these countries.

Re: Canada battles more than 180 wildfires with hundreds dead in heat wave

#28

Post by kzrdude »

poutine wrote: post #10
goodcanadian wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is such a thing as leading by example. It is imperfect, to be sure, but it does have an effect. At the moment, Canada is one of the worst countries in per capita greenhouse gas emissions, so perhaps, we can try to do a bit better before blaming other countries. Someone has to go first.

Lead by example? If you think China gives a crap about your example you’re horrendously naive.

China cares about its reputation. You can't push China around, but it is a bit sensitive to it.

Re: Canada battles more than 180 wildfires with hundreds dead in heat wave

#29

Post by rglover »

ipaddr wrote: post #7
elric wrote: post #3

And yet we'll continue to treat climate change as an inconvenience that can be addressed in 20 years, when - to quote Alex Steffen - we're not yet ready for what's already happened. https://alexsteffen.substack.com/p/were-not-yet-ready-for-wh...

There is an inconvenient truth we all avoid when we throw out climate change. There is nothing you can do to stop climate change. If you stopped all Canadians from producing any greenhouse gases the wildfires will continue and no one will have noticed. When two countries are producing the vast majority you are at their mercy. If Canada wants to bully, bribe or shame a country into submission it has to get bigger and…

> In the end anyone who has a cellphone supports climate change.

Correct. And to your point, China is building coal plants, not decomissioning them [0].

What people in the West fail to understand is that in order for society to improve (and currently, remain stable), you need cheap, reliable energy. Renewables—seemingly, the proposed alternatives (wind and solar)—are neither cheap nor reliable. They're also dependent on fossil fuels to be produced (and shipped, and cleaned, and de-iced, etc).

One of the best things you can get behind if you really want to see CO2 emissions drop—which, if you dig into the data, a lot of it is based on models, not observations (which are dramatically below the models) [1]—is to promote nuclear energy and domestic manufacturing.

The former is near carbon-free (in operation) and produces ample energy (and modern solutions are both safe and have limited/reusable waste). The latter promotes both national stability (people have jobs) and reduces unnecessary emissions in other countries and for transport of goods.

[0] https://www.canadianenergycentre.ca/commentary-china-is-buil...

[1] https://science.house.gov/imo/media/doc/Christy%20Testimony_...

Re: Canada battles more than 180 wildfires with hundreds dead in heat wave

#30

Post by whoknowswhat11 »

xroche wrote: post #19
curiousgal wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meanwhile some EU nations are opposing the classification of nuclear energy as green for ESG purposes.. https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/germany-four-others-...

This is even more hilarious: Germany oppose nuclear, which is the greenest energy source in terme of emissions, but managed to get funding to use "green" gas: https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_21_...

that is comical - funny to see how climate change doesn't really drive direct action even with environmentalists - looking into this they appear to be against nuclear while claiming carbon emissions are biggest issue?
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