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Cryptocurrency Blockchains Don’t Need to Be Energy Intensive

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Re: Cryptocurrency Blockchains Don’t Need to Be Energy Intensive

#101
post #98

https://endthefud.org/ There's a Proof of Stake section describing all of its shortcomings compared to Proof of Work. Plus a lot of bitcoin fud debunking.

Seems like a nicely researched collection of links, although I think they are a bit too quick to dismiss PoS as a lost cause. Perhaps PoW really is the superior system for now, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't continue to research PoS systems.

POS might be the future, and if we find that it's impossible to predict which stakes will be doing validation, I'm all for Bitcoin upgrading to POS.

Its just not ready today. No one is going to risk their Bitcoin savings on trying POS.

Let ethereum test it, then BTC can adopt it after a few years.

Re: Cryptocurrency Blockchains Don’t Need to Be Energy Intensive

#102

I'm not really convinced. Proof of Stake has a startup issue that Proof of Work doesn't have. If you want to have your coin begin as proof of stake you have to have some mechanism for how the initial coins are distributed and that method is usually going to involve the creators giving themselves a lot of coins. A lot of crypto projects have all sorts of ways of obfuscating this or claiming that the intial coins will…

> If you want to have your coin begin as proof of stake you have to have some mechanism for how the initial coins are distributed and that method is usually going to involve the creators giving themselves a lot of coins. Don't Proof of Work coin issuers do the same? Even Satoshi has a pretty large amount of Bitcoin.

This seems like a very cynical take. Somebody has to mine to keep the network secure. Starting the code and hoping the world starts mining equally is naive.

Re: Cryptocurrency Blockchains Don’t Need to Be Energy Intensive

#103
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The profit margins of a miner is pretty slim. If the price increases, mining becomes profitable, competition increases bringing down the profitability, likewise in reverse. So yes, you need money to mine, but whatever you mine, you pretty much have to turn around and sell it right away to cover your costs and keep a small profit.

That's exactly what I meant with "all crypto holders pay for it": in the state of equilibrium of costs and rewards, the huge costs are effectively paid by devaluing existing crypto holdings and via transaction costs. Is that good for crypto holders? No way! It's also not too good for miners of course, as they are in it for profit, not for rewards equaling costs. But fortunately for the miners, crypto mining is rarely…

> However you want to look at it, this coin looks crappy from both sides. Unless you're a miner.

Depends on what you are comparing to. For me, Bitcoin is easier to understand than the fiat system we are currently using, and that's why I'm heavily invested in to it.

In addition to miners making huge profits, there have been also cases where miner operations have turned sour, KnC Miner being one example.

Yes, there might be better systems out there. But BTC has very clear and simple protocol rules which are easy to understand, and it has properties which are very lucrative (permissionless, decentralized, limited supply, easily verifiable and transferable and so on). Other consensus mechanisms fail to deliver their promise in as effective way.

Re: Cryptocurrency Blockchains Don’t Need to Be Energy Intensive

#104
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the premine was allocated via an open crowdsale.

Of which the creators can grab an arbitrary part essentially for free.

They absolutely could not grab an arbitrary part for free. What an absurd claim.

The BTC paid during the Ethereum crowdsale went to the Ethereum Foundation bitcoin address, and that address can be audited. Misappropriating those funds would leave a massive chain trail, and require a massive conspiracy to plant the Ethereum Foundation with co-conspirators. It would be unthinkable.

On top of all of that, the operators would need to wait years to retrieve the BTC to not draw attention to the scam, meaning the assets would be locked up and out of reach. So even under this fantastical scenario, the ETH wouldn't be free: there would be a very significant liquidity cost in funds lockup, not to mention all the planning and risks involved in participating in a complex crime, involving an auditable foundation operating under Swiss law.

Re: Cryptocurrency Blockchains Don’t Need to Be Energy Intensive

#105
post #93
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> nobody can just become richer because they started rich Right. In PoW, they need access to limited semiconductor supplies and cheap electricity. Which are two things that can be bought with...what was that stuff called...? Ah, yes: money! So PoW does just the same - the rich tend to get richer - but it adds the necessity to cause unnecessary environmental pollution on the scale of an entire country to it. Oh, and a…

No, they are far from the same. It's true that BTC mining is capital intensive, yet it is highly competitive and risky, and most miners get a decent profit, yet need to sell the vast majority of mined coins to run their operation. Miners can never move on some parabolic increase of wealth as the very protocol itself prevents this. Rather, we should look at holders. Bitcoin is fair in the sense that it does not have r…

I wouldn't say BTC is fair, but it is clearly fairer. With PoS coins, it is clear that minting new coins will heavily centralize for exchanges and big holders. With BTC, miners are clearly categorized as separate economic actor, where the skillset and capital needed to mint new coins is very different from let's say operating an exchange.

Re: Cryptocurrency Blockchains Don’t Need to Be Energy Intensive

#106
post #96
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PoW also codifies "rich gets richer" - mining begets return on invested capital in exactly the same way that PoS does. In fact, arguably PoW is worse, because it has economies of scale that PoS does not have, so the rich truly do have an edge in PoW.

It's exactly opposite. When rich, with POS, you need to do nothing at all. No investment, no risk, no competition, you can just park your money and tap new money.

With PoW, you do nothing except maintain your mining hardware and burn electricity.

With PoS, you do nothing except maintain your staking hardware and burn the time value of the money you are staking.

From that perspective there is no difference. The difference is that with PoW, the richest participants can afford the most efficient hardware, giving them a super-linear advantage. In PoS, it's still true that the "rich get richer", but only at a linear rate, since there is no way to improve the efficiency of staking (which is basically the best you could ask for).

Re: Cryptocurrency Blockchains Don’t Need to Be Energy Intensive

#107
> The granddaddy of all consensus mechanisms—behind Bitcoin, Litecoin, Monero, and (for the time being at least) Ethereum—is called proof of work. Essentially, PoW makes adding transactions to the blockchain computationally—and therefore financially—very expensive, so as to discourage fraudulent activity. ...

This passage reflects a deep-seated, widespread misunderstanding of how/why Bitcoin works. I suspect the author knows, but the brevity of the article prevents actually explaining the issue. This is a recurring problem in this space and has opened up a large fraud opportunity as every bottle of snake oil looks the same to those who don't do the deep technical dive.

Proof-of-work has nothing to do with ensuring the validity of transactions. Transactions contain all of the information needed to detect invalid transactions. Hashes, signatures, scripts, and amounts can all be checked and will be rejected if invalid. The validity of every transaction can be tested without proof-of-work. Systems like this had been developed prior to Bitcoin.

So it's possible to eliminate every kind of fraud through cryptography alone, except one.

The problem proof-of-work solves is double spending, a term you won't find in the article. A malicious actor can try to spend the same coin twice (or more). Both versions of the double spend transaction are valid, but a node can only accept one. Which one does it accept? It accepts the one on the block with the most cumulative proof-of-work ("strongest chain"). In the event of a tie, the node accepts the first version it saw. The strongest proof-of-work chain can therefore change from one moment to the next as blocks are received.

Proof-of-work imposes a non-recoverable cost to publishing a block of transactions. That cost and its finality discourage double spending by making the publication of double spending transactions permanently expensive. An attacker needs to out-spend the entire rest of the network to succeed, and loses everything spent if the attack fails. The cost of a failed attack can never be recovered.

So any scheme to replace proof-of-work needs to maintain that element of irrecoverable loss of value for a failed double spending attack. It hasn't been an easy nut to crack. A lot of projects claimed to have done it only to discover some flaw in the game mechanics or technology.

Re: Cryptocurrency Blockchains Don’t Need to Be Energy Intensive

#108

I'm not really convinced. Proof of Stake has a startup issue that Proof of Work doesn't have. If you want to have your coin begin as proof of stake you have to have some mechanism for how the initial coins are distributed and that method is usually going to involve the creators giving themselves a lot of coins. A lot of crypto projects have all sorts of ways of obfuscating this or claiming that the intial coins will…

PoS is a pretty broken system imo, it essentially codefies "rich gets richer" into the protocol. The biggest holders now control both the supply on the exchanges and the protocol itself. It creates all kinds of weird issues (for example, what happens if an attacker gets a hold of a significant percentage of the coins, now they also have a great control over the network). Stakers don't have the same pressure to sell t…

> PoS is a pretty broken system imo

You could have a PoS currency that would initially distribute all coins evenly across the globe (that would be a really cool experiment). But yeah I don't like PoS either.

Re: Cryptocurrency Blockchains Don’t Need to Be Energy Intensive

#109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A PoW miner has to spend to cover their costs, a staker doesn't have any cost to cover, providing a cryptographic signature requires no energy on an ongoing basis, just an initial investment. PoW requires constant investment or you'll be left behind.

I wish there would be more debate about the equity of a cryptocurrency amongst the tech community. Why should the least well off in society be part of a crypto-coin whose supply has been given to early adopters and insiders? Ultimately the social compact of the economy you create will involve everyone, so we should design a coin that solves hard problems, not just narrowly defined ones that conveniently benefit a nar…

> Why should the least well off in society be part of a crypto-coin whose supply has been given to early adopters and insiders?

They shouldn't, what Bitcoin is enabling is the ability for whoever to use whatever kind of coin they want. Bitcoin opened the whole pandoras box where anyone can create their own coin if they want.

However, for each crypto coin there is clear incentive to make the coin more useful in transactions, both for those more well off and for those less fortunate. Typical BTC holder wants to make BTC useful for everyone, because that adds value for their holdings. That usefulness might add value to those less well-off. If not, they can use something else - in the end there is more choice in the marketplace which should (in theory) benefit everyone.

Re: Cryptocurrency Blockchains Don’t Need to Be Energy Intensive

#110
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like a nicely researched collection of links, although I think they are a bit too quick to dismiss PoS as a lost cause. Perhaps PoW really is the superior system for now, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't continue to research PoS systems.

POS might be the future, and if we find that it's impossible to predict which stakes will be doing validation, I'm all for Bitcoin upgrading to POS. Its just not ready today. No one is going to risk their Bitcoin savings on trying POS. Let ethereum test it, then BTC can adopt it after a few years.

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