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Hydrogen fuel cell cars (2020)

bmw.com

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Re: Hydrogen fuel cell cars (2020)

#51

Post by larshen »

dale_glass wrote: post #38

Hydrogen almost certainly won't go anywhere, in my opinion. * The efficiency compared to battery tech is horrendous. * Hydrogen is effectively a storage technology -- we have to generate it and compress it. Which combined with the above means that charging a hydrogen car will always be more expensive than putting the same amount of usable energy into a battery powered car. * Let's not forget that the cheapest way of…

Diesel engines were built into trucks and taxis before they were used in passenger cars. Same thing will happen with hydrogen.

Re: Hydrogen fuel cell cars (2020)

#52

Post by dabeeeenster »

Transrapid wrote: post #42
dale_glass wrote: post #38

Hydrogen almost certainly won't go anywhere, in my opinion. * The efficiency compared to battery tech is horrendous. * Hydrogen is effectively a storage technology -- we have to generate it and compress it. Which combined with the above means that charging a hydrogen car will always be more expensive than putting the same amount of usable energy into a battery powered car. * Let's not forget that the cheapest way of…

>The efficiency compared to battery tech is horrendous. nope >Hydrogen is effectively a storage technology -- we have to generate it and compress it. Which combined with the above means that charging a hydrogen car will always be more expensive than putting the same amount of usable energy into a battery powered car. Nope, 350kw charger -> loss >Let's not forget that the cheapest way of generating hydrogen is from fo…

Astroturfing account

Re: Hydrogen fuel cell cars (2020)

#53

Post by larshen »

puchatek wrote: post #48
dale_glass wrote: post #38

Hydrogen almost certainly won't go anywhere, in my opinion. * The efficiency compared to battery tech is horrendous. * Hydrogen is effectively a storage technology -- we have to generate it and compress it. Which combined with the above means that charging a hydrogen car will always be more expensive than putting the same amount of usable energy into a battery powered car. * Let's not forget that the cheapest way of…

I know this article is from bmw but afaik people are interested in hydrogen for other types of vehicles than cars. Ships, for instance. Forklifts. Trains. Planes will never work well due to hydrogens low energy-to-volume ratio, unfortunately.

Tell that to Airbus. It will work well on 500 miles trips with 50 passengers, which is most air transportation.

Re: Hydrogen fuel cell cars (2020)

#54

Post by threeseed »

dale_glass wrote: post #38

Hydrogen almost certainly won't go anywhere, in my opinion. * The efficiency compared to battery tech is horrendous. * Hydrogen is effectively a storage technology -- we have to generate it and compress it. Which combined with the above means that charging a hydrogen car will always be more expensive than putting the same amount of usable energy into a battery powered car. * Let's not forget that the cheapest way of…

> cheapest way of generating hydrogen is from fossil fuels

Cheapest way of charging EVs is from fossil fuels.

> You need a large infrastructure to produce and distribute it

But you can reuse gas stations as the delivery mechanism. Versus EVs which require all new infrastructure since the charging time is so much longer.

> It's a huge chicken and egg problem

No different from EVs right now.

> What is more convenient, having a car that can be plugged into an outlet, or a car that needs an extremely specialized hydrogen station

Hydrogen charges a full tank in < 5 minutes which makes it the more convenient solution for most of the world who don't have access to outlets at home.

Re: Hydrogen fuel cell cars (2020)

#55

Post by LeonM »

dale_glass wrote: post #38

Hydrogen almost certainly won't go anywhere, in my opinion. * The efficiency compared to battery tech is horrendous. * Hydrogen is effectively a storage technology -- we have to generate it and compress it. Which combined with the above means that charging a hydrogen car will always be more expensive than putting the same amount of usable energy into a battery powered car. * Let's not forget that the cheapest way of…

You forgot safety.

Hydrogen poses some serious dangers as it is odorless and colorless if it leaks. It is very easy to ignite and it is explosive at a wide range of mixtures with oxygen. [0]

An hydrogen leak in an underground parking garage will be a very dangerous situation.

Obviously any dense concentration of energy will be dangerous. The gasoline in a traditional car is also highly flammable (though less likely to be explosive), and lithium reactions also also very hard to extinguish. But with both gasoline and lithium fire, you have some time to get yourself to a safe distance, with hydrogen... not so much.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_safety

Re: Hydrogen fuel cell cars (2020)

#56

Post by Transrapid »

dabeeeenster wrote: post #52
Transrapid wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The efficiency compared to battery tech is horrendous. nope >Hydrogen is effectively a storage technology -- we have to generate it and compress it. Which combined with the above means that charging a hydrogen car will always be more expensive than putting the same amount of usable energy into a battery powered car. Nope, 350kw charger -> loss >Let's not forget that the cheapest way of generating hydrogen is from fo…

Astroturfing account

what? no!

Re: Hydrogen fuel cell cars (2020)

#57

Post by ytNumbers »

Sandy Munro thinks Plasma Kinetics has a breakthrough technology that will, at some point in the future, allow hydrogen powered cars to dominate the auto industry.

https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/e0f655f1-c51d-4fe6-9383-1ff...

Here's where Sandy Munro mentions Plasma Kinetics:

https://youtu.be/06AhaQXhuwQ?t=226

Re: Hydrogen fuel cell cars (2020)

#58

Post by joe_91 »

At this stage - I don't see wide spread adoption happening outside of Japan or somewhere where a country really pushes for it.

Battery/recharging tech is improving year on year. For their latest model S plaid they've claimed: Tesla says that 15 minutes should be enough to replenish 187 miles (301 km) of range.[1]

In 2-3 years when the rest of the worlds car companies/ fast chargers have caught on I just don't see how Hydrogen can compete with all the downsides it has.

1. https://insideevs.com/news/515641/tesla-models-plaid-chargin...

Re: Hydrogen fuel cell cars (2020)

#59

Post by epistasis »

larshen wrote: post #50
dale_glass wrote: post #38

Hydrogen almost certainly won't go anywhere, in my opinion. * The efficiency compared to battery tech is horrendous. * Hydrogen is effectively a storage technology -- we have to generate it and compress it. Which combined with the above means that charging a hydrogen car will always be more expensive than putting the same amount of usable energy into a battery powered car. * Let's not forget that the cheapest way of…

Electric cars weigh more and accelerate faster. Consequently tires and road sealing is worn more. Hydrogen cars do not weigh more.

I don't see that being generally true. For example, the Toyota Mirai weighs 4300 lbs to the Tesla Model 3 weighing 4000 pounds:

https://www.caranddriver.com/toyota/mirai/specs

https://www.caranddriver.com/tesla/model-3/specs

As far as acceleration, that's just a design parameter, as both are driven by electric motors. I'm surprised the Mirai can't perform better given it's extra weight.

Re: Hydrogen fuel cell cars (2020)

#60

Post by chartpath »

radicalbyte wrote: post #23
Ma8ee wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are betting on them in Japan, and they are using the olympic village as some kind of proof of concepts with both vehicles, but also residential energy production from hydrogen. And of course the Olympic torch will use hydrogen. Toyota are also betting on hydrogen. This is the reason why, even though they were early with hybrids, they still haven't released any purely electric cars.

Japan are building on Methane Hydrate as a strategic energy supply. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/japan-china-combu... We really are the most short sighted and stupid species, and only have ourselves to blame for what is to come.

Yeah wow, let's melt more ice to power stuff.
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