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Cryptocurrency Blockchains Don’t Need to Be Energy Intensive

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Re: Cryptocurrency Blockchains Don’t Need to Be Energy Intensive

#41
post #40

No matter how many non-PoW shitcoins you make, the main one (BTC) is not going to change and remains the dominant one . You can't solve the problem by creating more shitcoins, only by crashing the whole field into the ground.

Bitcoin is far from #1 in terms of transactions per day which seems like the only important measurement of adoption.

For the purposes of environmental hazard, it isn't number of transactions that matter but number of miners. That in turn is going to depend on the expected payout to miners (either in value of new coin or in transaction fees). New coin mining rate is fixed for bitcoin, so the only parameters one can change to reduce the environmental impact are value and transaction fees.

Re: Cryptocurrency Blockchains Don’t Need to Be Energy Intensive

#42

I'm not really convinced. Proof of Stake has a startup issue that Proof of Work doesn't have. If you want to have your coin begin as proof of stake you have to have some mechanism for how the initial coins are distributed and that method is usually going to involve the creators giving themselves a lot of coins. A lot of crypto projects have all sorts of ways of obfuscating this or claiming that the intial coins will…

> Proof of Work on the other hand doesn't have this issue. The creator has the same ability to mine coins as anyone else does, so it doesn't have the same initial trust issues as Proof of Stake does.

It certainly does. Many POW coins are kept private for a small amount of time so that the developers can mine without competition before making the network public.

Re: Cryptocurrency Blockchains Don’t Need to Be Energy Intensive

#44
post #40

No matter how many non-PoW shitcoins you make, the main one (BTC) is not going to change and remains the dominant one . You can't solve the problem by creating more shitcoins, only by crashing the whole field into the ground.

Bitcoin is far from #1 in terms of transactions per day which seems like the only important measurement of adoption.

But as the coin with the largest market cap, greater than the next 9 put together [1], is by far the biggest one.

I agree though. Bitcoin isn't the only crypto coin worth talking about.

[1] https://www.forbes.com/advisor/investing/top-10-cryptocurren...

Re: Cryptocurrency Blockchains Don’t Need to Be Energy Intensive

#45
The fundamental problem that needs to be solved is voting power allocation. You have a group of people that wants to use a cryptocurrency and you want to allow everyone to voice his opinion about what transaction are valid and should be recorded and which are not so that you can determine the consensus.

Your first problem is to decide who gets to vote. Does everyone get to vote or do you have to participate in the system, e.g. own at least some coins in that system? Do only humans get to vote or do legal entities like banks and companies get to vote? Does everyone get the same vote or does the number of votes vary, e.g. based on the amount of coins you own?

The second problem is the hard one, you want this system to be anonymous which means you can not have a directory of voters but you have to prevent voters from casting more votes than they are supposed to have. That means you have to find some proxy for voters that is ideally impossible but in practice at least hard do duplicate. On the other hand this proxy should be easy and cheap to obtain so that every voter can make use of his vote.

For the example of proof of work the assumption is that every human can own and dedicate about the same amount of computing power. It is not too easy to duplicate because you have to spend money in order to buy more computing power and in turn more votes which is better than giving one vote to each username or email address which are much cheaper to duplicate.

But it turned out that it does not work all to well, people can own and dedicate vastly different amounts of computing power after all so that now only a tiny fraction of all Bitcoin users make use of their vote. Everyone else now trusts the miners on the basis of aligned incentives, i.e. malice miners would destroy the trust and usefulness of Bitcoin, driving its value down, and with that undermine their mining revenue.

Personally I am quite skeptical that one can find something that works well. It has to essentially proof that you are a specific human without revealing your identity and still be unforgeable. Proxys like computing power, storage space, or money are generally duplicable by investing more money, so that it seems hard to come up with a system where voting power is not concentrated on the wealthy.

This is not a fundamental problem but there are certainly people that would consider this to undermine the promise of cryptocurrencies to a certain extend because the votes and therefore the power is not spread evenly among the users and so this requires some amount of trust.

Re: Cryptocurrency Blockchains Don’t Need to Be Energy Intensive

#46
post #37

The article assumes that PoW cannot be done in an energy efficient way. Last year I wrote an article on how to do PoW in an energy efficient way by using the digital signing capability from the NFC chip of modern passports. The proposal was discussed here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23066477

You don't need PoW mining or any sophisticated consensus at all if you use tamper-proof hardware. Here is my proposal of using FIDO keys https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26214175

Re: Cryptocurrency Blockchains Don’t Need to Be Energy Intensive

#47
post #29
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe someone has a really clever idea but I do not think anything rooted in the real world can work. You will always need some kind of sensor to record whatever it is that you are doing in the real world and you will have to prevent people from faking those sensor readings. If you had a central authority as root of trust you might be able to build some tamper-proof device that provides cryptographically attested val…

This is called the oracle problem. The proposed solutions are in the same vein as security in base layer consensus mechanism: create an economic incentive to be accurate over time. Make sensors/sensor data compete to be designated as roots and gain some sort of revenue. Reputation is hard to build, but easy to destroy.

I think they are similar but not identical problems. For things like some stock price I can see how you could have several competing oracles that can build trust over time, but if you want to monitor and report the amount of solar energy I am producing for mining I can not see how this could work. Especially not if you want to preserve anonymity which kind of rules out that miners crosscheck each other by placing their own sensors.

Re: Cryptocurrency Blockchains Don’t Need to Be Energy Intensive

#48
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There were no pre-mined bitcoin distributed. Satoshi mined his coins in the early days but crucially anyone could participate and mine at the same time.

I know that in USA legal system there is concept "spirit of the law" and afaik there were cases when a person was intentionally abiding the "word of the law" but breaking "spirit of the law" and was penalized for this. So anyway, Satoshi solo mine and anyone else's solo mine, is not technically a premine, but in a spirit - it is. Saying that solo mine is not a premine is true, but you know, I know, everyone knows tha…

In a premine, developers hard code coin balances for themselves into their own ledger prior to public mining becoming available. Satoshi clearly didn’t do this. It’s that cut and dry.

Re: Cryptocurrency Blockchains Don’t Need to Be Energy Intensive

#49
post #37

The article assumes that PoW cannot be done in an energy efficient way. Last year I wrote an article on how to do PoW in an energy efficient way by using the digital signing capability from the NFC chip of modern passports. The proposal was discussed here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23066477

That's trusting private keys of passport-issuing governments and makers of the NFC chips. If you can trust an authority like that, then you don't even need a blockchain.

The whole scheme will fall apart as soon as value of cheating will be higher than the cost of equipment needed to extract keys from a passport.

Re: Cryptocurrency Blockchains Don’t Need to Be Energy Intensive

#50

PoW isn't necessarily bad, if the work can be made useful. e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folding@home I vaguely remember hearing about some coin proposing a Folding@home concept. Does anyone know of any novel Po(useful)W coins?

There is grid coin using BOINC instead of folding@home. There is also primecoin (from the inventor of PoS) that searches for prime numbers. Don't know if either are still active.
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