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Electric vehicles are the future for everyone – except disabled people

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Re: Electric vehicles are the future for everyone – except disabled people

#41

Post by pepperberg »

felixlechat wrote: post #34
pepperberg wrote: post #19

"The disabled community doesn’t want to drive gas-burning cars while everyone else zips around in zero-emission vehicles" I do not understand this craze for EVs. The German Fraunhofer ISI found evidence [1] that it might take up to 93,000 miles / 150,000km until you hit a break even point with regards to emissions (58 kWh; compared to Diesel). Is that also a factor in most buyer's decisions or is it just about the fe…

EVs CO2 emmissions depends of the carbon intensity of electricity consumed. So that is true that Germany with now 323gCO₂eq/kWh has a higher break even. But if you take the same data for exemple in France where electricity is much less carbon intensive, (now 32gCO₂eq/kWh), break even is as low as 15000km for an EV. Germany should just emit less carbon for electricity generation. [1] https://www.electricitymap.org/zon…

Those are really valuable resources, thank you!

Although France's electricity mix is exceptionally low, I'm surprised to see that the EU average (438gCO₂eq/kWh) is even higher than in Germany ([2], page 74).

In the US, it's over 600gCO₂eq/kWh, in China even 1,000gCO₂eq/kWh (1.3 million EVs were sold in China in 2020).

Re: Electric vehicles are the future for everyone – except disabled people

#42

Post by AtlasBarfed »

edude03 wrote: post #22

While I definitely don't want to come across as unsympathetic or uncaring towards those with disabilities, I am quite frustrated by tone of this article. Yes, putting the battery in the floor makes the current ways that disabled people modify their vehicles to be more friendly easier, however, the need to modify the vehicle is not unique to EVs - they were already taking non friendly vehicles and making them friendli…

A flat skateboard design, which is Tesla's current approach, VW's approach, and virtually everyone else making dedicated EV platforms, should enable ramps just fine I would think.

EVs because of this skateboard and the lack of need of an engine compartment and numerous other ICE systems will offer MORE interior room and body design possibilities.

I'm really chomping at the bit for a EV Minivan, which should just offer a ridiculous amount of storage and flexibility. Certainly such a platform will be able to accommodate wheelchairs.

Finally, SOME kind of self-driving is coming. Even if last-mile local street self-driving is delayed for quite a while, the ability to have a "remote driver service" is certainly possible, so even if the wheelchair can't go in the driver's seat, the wheelchair person can drive from a glorified game console, supervise the self-driving program, or have a remote person navigate for them via cameras.

The notion that we'll be unable to make some way for wheelchairs to use skateboard design EVs is really stretching reality.

Re: Electric vehicles are the future for everyone – except disabled people

#43

Post by alostpuppy »

fencepost wrote: post #40

Seems like the basic EV design of "thick slab with wheels at the corners and everything else flexible and bolted on" could actually be an advantage in a lot of ways. Slide out ramps may not fit, but lifts shouldn't be a problem and internal movement could be easier. Heck, height adjustment of the entire body (or just one side) is probably not out of the question when you don't have to worry about mechanical connectio…

I think you are right. As a “platform” these designs might end up with a lot to offer.

Re: Electric vehicles are the future for everyone – except disabled people

#44

Post by Retric »

dv_dt wrote: post #14
Retric wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s got little to do with the article. Their primary issue is EV’s have batteries in the floor. This is great for driving as it lowers the center of gravity and adds space for a frunk, but adding a wheelchair ramp etc becomes extremely difficult. It’s fixable, but significantly more expensive to deal with. Charging cables are heavy and require precision making them difficult for many disabled people to use. Also f…

I don’t think it will be any more complicated then having a slightly different ramp. Existing disabled support vehicles in the article are already minivans or vans and they don’t have a particularly low floor to start with.

Disability ramps can’t be overly steep which means the higher the point they need to reach the longer the ramp needs to be. It quickly gets to the point where the only practical solution is a char lift which is expensive and less reliable. Extending the ramp into the vehicle is therefore critical from a practicality standpoint.

It’s likely there will eventually be a viable EV alternative, but for now nothing from Tesla for example is viable.

Re: Electric vehicles are the future for everyone – except disabled people

#45

Post by bombcar »

eplanit wrote: post #13
Retric wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s got little to do with the article. Their primary issue is EV’s have batteries in the floor. This is great for driving as it lowers the center of gravity and adds space for a frunk, but adding a wheelchair ramp etc becomes extremely difficult. It’s fixable, but significantly more expensive to deal with. Charging cables are heavy and require precision making them difficult for many disabled people to use. Also f…

"Charging cables are heavy and require precision making them difficult for many disabled people to use. Also few charging stations have been added to disabled parking spaces." Interesting. Why isn't the ADA used to require such affordances?

Gas stations have signs posted saying that if you need ADA assistance and more than two people are working the station to tap your horn or call the number to get full service at normal pump prices.

Something similar for “manned” charging stations would likely suffice (though many are unmanned).

Re: Electric vehicles are the future for everyone – except disabled people

#46

Post by jwalton »

BB212 wrote: post #32
baron816 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Model T wasn’t the first car. It was the first mass-market, “Everyman” car. What I’m talking about is a car that pretty much anyone who can afford a car can afford.

I'm fairly certain that Tesla's are way cheaper than the model T was. It isn't like families could afford multiple cars back then. They were selling less than a million model Ts a years - which would have represented a large segment of the car market.

If the prices here[0] are correct, then the inflation adjusted price of a Model T would be around $7000-$23000, according to this[1].

[0] https://www.fordmodelt.net/m/facts.htm

[1] https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/

Re: Electric vehicles are the future for everyone – except disabled people

#47

Post by AtlasBarfed »

Black101 wrote: post #3

I think hydrogen fuel cells are the future if we can't make nuclear work.

Advocating for hydrogen should be accompanied with an explanation of:

- how to generate the hydrogen carbon-neutral or better with less loss than alternative-energy+grid transmission.

- how to store and transport it to fueling stations

- how to build out the fueling infrastructure, since the grid already exists for BEVs

- how you will prevent people from simply using methane as a cheap alternative for H2 production, which the fossil fuel industry will very much want and will lobby to make viable

- how you will practically refuel cars

- how the cars will store the hydrogen

- why we should invest trillions in h2 infrastructure when it's all largely unproven at scale and BEVs seem to beat it economically at a midpoint of economies of scale growth

Nuclear has an entire other list of issues/challenges to maintain economic relevancy as Solar/Wind/Storage costs plummet. And I'm a serious fan of LFTR and believe ongoing research for modular MSRs should be funded even as we mostly focus on solar/wind/storage.

Re: Electric vehicles are the future for everyone – except disabled people

#48

Post by dv_dt »

Retric wrote: post #44
dv_dt wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think it will be any more complicated then having a slightly different ramp. Existing disabled support vehicles in the article are already minivans or vans and they don’t have a particularly low floor to start with.

Disability ramps can’t be overly steep which means the higher the point they need to reach the longer the ramp needs to be. It quickly gets to the point where the only practical solution is a char lift which is expensive and less reliable. Extending the ramp into the vehicle is therefore critical from a practicality standpoint. It’s likely there will eventually be a viable EV alternative, but for now nothing from Tes…

nothing from Tesla is really a minivan or van. Their affordable suv is more of a minsuv. I haven’t seen any ice mini suvs accommodating wheelchairs.

Re: Electric vehicles are the future for everyone – except disabled people

#49

Post by DannyBee »

Nothing in this article makes sense. Others have pointed out the design argument is silly.

I can also find no data that backs up the notion that there are 61 million disabled drivers out there. It’s certainly possible but no idea where that stat comes from and searching doesn’t find it.

The 500 million disposable income is also weird to highlight.

That would mean each of the 61 million disabled drivers has about $8.50 in disposable income. That isn’t going to buy them anything ev, or not.

So my guess is the article is just mixing lots of different and irrelevant data to try to make a point (and failing)

Re: Electric vehicles are the future for everyone – except disabled people

#50

Post by [deleted] »

jwalton wrote: post #46
BB212 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm fairly certain that Tesla's are way cheaper than the model T was. It isn't like families could afford multiple cars back then. They were selling less than a million model Ts a years - which would have represented a large segment of the car market.

If the prices here[0] are correct, then the inflation adjusted price of a Model T would be around $7000-$23000, according to this[1]. [0] https://www.fordmodelt.net/m/facts.htm [1] https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/

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