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Ask HN: How do SMBs afford such expensive software engineers in the US?

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Re: Ask HN: How do SMBs afford such expensive software engineers in the US?

#41

Post by gravypod »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #12

SMBs don’t hire any employees, including software engineers, unless that employee can generate more revenue than they cost to employ. The higher compensation of software engineers means that they won’t be hired for smaller tasks. Generally, SMBs don’t hire software engineers at all unless they’re in the business of making and selling software. Smaller software engineering tasks are contracted out to vendors and custo…

> There are also many junior developers outside of big cities who have salaries more in line with the $60K range you listed.

My first job as a SWE was for a small startup in NJ (just outside of NY) for ~$50k/year. This was not even an area with a low cost of living.

The unfortunate truth is an employer will pay you the minimum they think you think you're worth if, and only if, that's above what they think you're worth.

Within 6 months I told my boss I wanted a performance review and I got a 50% raise (to ~80k) because my performance well exceeded the perceived performance at my original hiring.

Now that I'm more "senior", something else that I've realized is that hiring an engineer who has been around the block and has a wide breath of knowledge is a much larger force multiplier than hiring 20 engineers and having them scramble. When I look for my next gig some time in the future I'm not going to be pitching myself as solving just their technical challenges anymore. The business case will be "Not only have I solved the problems you're having currently, I've also failed at solving them. I know all the footguns of team leadership and technical stacks. If you want to spend your money efficiently and converge on a solution to your business and organizational problems I can help you get there... for a modest fee"

That is how you make a business person think you're worth your salt because, despite it not being true, "anyone can code" is a common sentiment among that crowd.

Re: Ask HN: How do SMBs afford such expensive software engineers in the US?

#42

Post by yardie »

throwaway6734 wrote: post #17

>Software engineers in all other major countries earns about $30K - $60K on average. These countries include: Japan, China, Australia, Germany, Canada. How are salaries so low there? How do they plan on having competitive tech markets?

In my experience, as an American expat working in the EU, these countries have an extremely low level of churn. In most cases the only way to get a raise is to be hired away. So most developers put up with the annual CoL raise of 3-5%. Instead of changing companies every 2 years with a $10k-50k bump you stay 10 years in one company and eventually get a $10k over that period.

I know most Americans feel its the strong worker protections in the EU that cause the pay stagnation. It's far more complex than that. SWEs can leave for another company whenever they want. In some cases there are deep structural issues* that can keep you at a company.

* One example, in France there is no upper limit on the caution for an apartment. It can be as high as 20k-50k€. If you need to rent a place and don't come from a rich family your employer can provide the caution. Now that your employer has solved your housing problem you feel a certain loyalty to them and the 10-20 year career starts.

Re: Ask HN: How do SMBs afford such expensive software engineers in the US?

#43

Post by kolinko »

gifwithaj wrote: post #23
IkmoIkmo wrote: post #15

A few thoughts: 1) SMBs don't necessarily hire that many software engineers. Hell, even tons of large companies barely do. I work at a multinational (100 countries) which mostly buys off the shelf software, and uses basic tools like Excel to run a ridiculous amount of internal business processes. 2) Non-software companies tend to hire software companies, not software engineers. Due to the economies of scale that come…

The anti-American scree at the end here is hilariously inaccurate. The "inequality" has a kernel of truth- but that's why having a high salary in the US is amazing. I'm an average developer at an unglamorous company you've never heard of. I have unlimited vacation and lots of company holidays. Parental leave is full pay for 5 or 6 months, my monthly healthcare costs are the same as a single hour of wage if I was paid…

I don't know how you define Eastern Europe, but I've had a bunch of friends who moved back to Poland after working in Google in the Bay Area, claiming that the quality of life is better here.

Ditto myself - I spend winters in SF, because of the weather and amazing people and the community there, but in most other aspects Warsaw wins. City cleanliness, restaurants & coffee places (sic), access to schools, transportation, and healthcare. SF by comparison has awesome nature, clean air and brilliant community. Plus access to one-day shipping of a ton of stuff unavailable in Europe.

As for lower-income people, I'm curious what metrics you used. With the main ones that come to my mind (education, healthcare, work benefits, unemployed benefits) I think Poland and Europe win. But lower income people can't afford cars and iPhones - so that's different.

Re: Ask HN: How do SMBs afford such expensive software engineers in the US?

#44

Post by stephenhuey »

Youden wrote: post #24

Fundamentally, software engineers aren't a commodity. They're not all created equal and they have their own desires and preferences which factor in to what they choose to do. The FAANGs in the US will hire basically anybody, provided that person passes their interview process and is willing to physically relocate to one of their offices, which are usually located in major cities that have high costs of living (e.g. B…

Regarding the competent people who don’t want to, I’ve met many. I remember meeting a guy a dozen years ago who did a lot with C++ and a Beowulf cluster for a very large research hospital and even then his salary was much lower than it could’ve been, so I asked him why he wasn’t at a FAANG (before the acronym existed), and he told me it was because in his current job he could own all his outside work, whereas Google would’ve made him sign his ideas away. I’ve also worked with a very bright developer at a large investment bank and although both of us left long ago, he eventually set up a company doing the most mundane IT consulting (printers and networks for law firms, etc) so that he could focus on his side passions of teaching classes at a local HackerSpace and soddering his creations together there for no money whatsoever. I’ve met a lot of people who are more brilliant or better engineers than a lot of Googlers I know who simply do not desire the job, even if it meant getting paid many times more. Some very talented FAANG people I know wish they were starting their own thing but just don’t know what else to do. Nothing wrong with working a job till inspiration strikes you, though!

Re: Ask HN: How do SMBs afford such expensive software engineers in the US?

#45

Post by tester756 »

Youden wrote: post #24

Fundamentally, software engineers aren't a commodity. They're not all created equal and they have their own desires and preferences which factor in to what they choose to do. The FAANGs in the US will hire basically anybody, provided that person passes their interview process and is willing to physically relocate to one of their offices, which are usually located in major cities that have high costs of living (e.g. B…

how bigger is the salary of system necromant or code shaman than software engineer

ok, ok - I know that's not the point, but I wish IT had consistent title names and roles

Re: Ask HN: How do SMBs afford such expensive software engineers in the US?

#46

Post by pcmoney »

stephenhuey wrote: post #44
Youden wrote: post #24

Fundamentally, software engineers aren't a commodity. They're not all created equal and they have their own desires and preferences which factor in to what they choose to do. The FAANGs in the US will hire basically anybody, provided that person passes their interview process and is willing to physically relocate to one of their offices, which are usually located in major cities that have high costs of living (e.g. B…

Regarding the competent people who don’t want to, I’ve met many. I remember meeting a guy a dozen years ago who did a lot with C++ and a Beowulf cluster for a very large research hospital and even then his salary was much lower than it could’ve been, so I asked him why he wasn’t at a FAANG (before the acronym existed), and he told me it was because in his current job he could own all his outside work, whereas Google…

Declaring/Designating and protecting personal IP when joining BigTechCo is standard practice.

As long as you are not using tools and internal IP on your project and it is not a competing product it is typically fine.

This idea that BigTech is hostile to side projects is misplaced. They would actually like it if you succeed because its a PR and branding win for their engineers.

Re: Ask HN: How do SMBs afford such expensive software engineers in the US?

#47

Post by pcmoney »

Be careful with averages.

Sure FAANG engineers can commonly make $200-600k. But the last equivalent tech co I worked at had 3 per 1,000 applicant acceptance rate (sure they probably also had a lot of people applying without a prayer) I wonder what the median is?

Also beware of survivor bias. At successful, public TechCos equity compensation typically grows over time due to the rise in stock price (if it doesnt the pay quickly becomes more average and/or the company goes bust) You can easily have an L4 engineer making L6/7 money because their start date and RSU pricing was lucky. Absolutely nothing to do with their skill…

Re: Ask HN: How do SMBs afford such expensive software engineers in the US?

#48

Post by pcmoney »

IkmoIkmo wrote: post #15

A few thoughts: 1) SMBs don't necessarily hire that many software engineers. Hell, even tons of large companies barely do. I work at a multinational (100 countries) which mostly buys off the shelf software, and uses basic tools like Excel to run a ridiculous amount of internal business processes. 2) Non-software companies tend to hire software companies, not software engineers. Due to the economies of scale that come…

Defining quality of life can be hard and subjective but at a US BugTechCo you typically work 35-45hrs, have top shelf insurance, unlimited vacation (that people use and sometimes paid paid vacation where you get paid while you’re on vacation AND get paid to take one as a bonus) Also we have a ton of holidays (sup Juneteenth!) as for public transport the US is BIG but ya we should work on that, also more dense cities, I agree there.

Can also just buy a place in the EU once you’re rich from FAANG life… or with full remote go make the US salary there.

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