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What did ancient languages sound like?

antigonejournal.com

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Re: What did ancient languages sound like?

#111
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on when the poetry was written. Classical Chinese was in use for over two thousand years, with the written Mandarin-based vernacular Chinese only replacing it in the last century. So later poetry (e.g. during the Qing) may not have been written with Middle Chinese pronunciation in mind. For example, the somewhat (in)famous poem, 'Lion-Eating Poet in the Stone Den' consisting entirely of homophones in modern s…

It's hard to overstate the intellectual puzzle this is! Classical Chinese scholarship had a developed body of proto-linguistics, including rime spelling, a system for phonetic transcription and analysis, which transcribed sounds using Chinese characters purely phonetically. It was used to indicate the pronunciation of characters, as well as foreign words in bilingual dictionaries and so on: https://en.wikipedia.org/w…

It's very interesting that at the same time written Chinese is terrible for pronunciation, even an absolutely beginner (that's not too young a child) must surely be more aware of etymology the concept. Perhaps I am biased, but to me it is a writing system that schemes "history!" unceasingly.

It would make sense then if there was much earlier linguistics / folk etymologist, etc. in Chinese history. Whereas I didn't think think anything like modern linguistics got going until the enlightenment creation of the Classics' modern form.

Re: What did ancient languages sound like?

#112

One of the more neglected and somewhat mind bendy aspects of Latin pronunciation is how often -m was not pronounced. Afaik the typical -um ending was a nasalized vowel with no /m/. There was an article that made HN a while ago about censor being spelled cesor in an inscription. Probably because /n/, like /m/, was serving to nasalize the vowel before and was not itself pronounced. It also starts to hint at how the mod…

Learning about this made Romanian, with all its words ending in -u, not seem strange suddenly!

Interestingly, spoken Catalan and spoken Portuguese also use -u as ending, while -o is written.

Re: What did ancient languages sound like?

#113
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it is really hard for speakers of European languages to believe that a language could have the same pronunciation that it had centuries ago. Obvious example: Arabic from at least the 7th century AD: As an Arabic speaker, I can totally read a text the way it was pronounced 14 centuries ago and also perfectly understand it. You cannot say the same thing for European languages. Probably the same for sanskrit.

> As an Arabic speaker, I can totally read a text the way it was pronounced 14 centuries ago You probably cannot. Every region with a tradition of reciting the Qur'an has their own way of pronouncing it. It would be a strange coincidence if your tradition in particular happened to keep the pronunciation unchanged while all the others didn't. E.g. do you pronounce ﺽ as a pharyngealized voiced alveolar lateral fricativ…

Because it is necessary to read the Qur'an properly, and in order for it not to change or deteriorate over time, old scientists wrote in books how to read each letter and its rules. It is written in detail where each letter will come out of the mouth and what features(like the sibilants, the stressed letters, the soft letters, the labiolinguals, and tremolo etc. ) it will have. For us in Turkey it is different ve more difficult but we learn it to read the Qur'an properly. You can listen a surah from the Quran from a Turkish or Arabic reciter there is no big difference.

Re: What did ancient languages sound like?

#114
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As an Arabic speaker, I can totally read a text the way it was pronounced 14 centuries ago You probably cannot. Every region with a tradition of reciting the Qur'an has their own way of pronouncing it. It would be a strange coincidence if your tradition in particular happened to keep the pronunciation unchanged while all the others didn't. E.g. do you pronounce ﺽ as a pharyngealized voiced alveolar lateral fricativ…

Because it is necessary to read the Qur'an properly, and in order for it not to change or deteriorate over time, old scientists wrote in books how to read each letter and its rules. It is written in detail where each letter will come out of the mouth and what features(like the sibilants, the stressed letters, the soft letters, the labiolinguals, and tremolo etc. ) it will have. For us in Turkey it is different ve mor…

> old scientists wrote in books how to read each letter and its rules. It is written in detail where each letter will come out of the mouth and what features(like the sibilants, the stressed letters, the soft letters, the labiolinguals, and tremolo etc. ) it will have

Indeed, that is why modern scientists believe that ﺽ must have represented some kind of lateral sound, like a lateral fricative (or maybe a lateral affricate or a stop with lateral release – the descriptions aren't detailed enough to distinguish between these options.) But most modern speakers nonetheless pronounce it as a plain stop or dental fricative instead of lateral.

Having a description of the pronunciation doesn't mean that someone reading the description will be able to follow it perfectly. Otherwise everyone learning a foreign language would be able to develop a native-like accent just by reading about the correct pronunciation.

Re: What did ancient languages sound like?

#115
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As an Arabic speaker, I can totally read a text the way it was pronounced 14 centuries ago You probably cannot. Every region with a tradition of reciting the Qur'an has their own way of pronouncing it. It would be a strange coincidence if your tradition in particular happened to keep the pronunciation unchanged while all the others didn't. E.g. do you pronounce ﺽ as a pharyngealized voiced alveolar lateral fricativ…

>> You probably cannot. Exactly my point. You’re under the impression I cannot because of your limited knowledge of this topic: even if 1 letter was slightly different (which it is not), how does that discard the prononciation of 99% of the rest? >> Every region with a tradition of reciting the Qur'an has their own way of pronouncing it Plain wrong. If you knew the topic, you would know that the various way to read t…

It seems our disagreement is mostly about the semantics of what it means to pronounce something the same way.

Re: What did ancient languages sound like?

#116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why say 'topolect', and not just 'language'? I realize topolect is a translation of an official chinese term, but as far as I'm aware we're not Chinese officials. We're speaking English, and we can be brave enough to call mutually unintelligible languages what they are - languages. And before anyone gives me the 'language is a dialect with an army and a navy' - yes it's pithy but there's so many counter examples.

'Topolect' (an English word coined in America by an English-speaking linguist who was describing Chinese languages) has the advantage of being precise and preserving the relationship between Mandarin and Cantonese that the writer was specifically referring to, but that aside, might I suggest that courage is best seen and not heard.

'Topolect' is just a translation of 方言, a word that was previously translated as 'dialect'.

It's a weak, flimsy word for people who know better, but still don't have the courage to say 'language'.

Re: What did ancient languages sound like?

#117
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand it comes across as jingoistic, but truly Sanskrit grammar and pronunciation hasn’t changed since Pānini. The word Sanskrit itself means “constructed” and there was a rigorous effort to prevent ambiguity.

there are no recordings from panini's times and panini's texts pertain to grammar. they don't prescribe pronunciation - like precise position of tongue lips etc...

That’s actually the first thing you learn and it’s quite rigorous where to vocalize and how.

Re: What did ancient languages sound like?

#118
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How fossilized? While it is not used as an everyday language, there is a yet growing library of literature, and vigorous philosophical debate that happens in Samskruta. BTW, an unrelated rant, the other thing that grinds on me is that the Ganga river is ALWAYS referred as Ganges (another anglicization)! Ganga is easier to pronounce, so why did that get anglicized, I wonder?

Certainly vocabulary has been added to, but the whole point of the work of Pāṇini and others was to prevent the Vedas from drifting over time. That freezing of the core of the language was deliberate and artificial. (The same thing applies to the Arabic of the 7th century. It exists nearly unchanged at its core for religious reasons, and a version with various additions functions as a lingua franca and language of ac…

Not only that, but in Vedic ceremonies you have a priest who is just there so no mistakes are made.

>The brahman was the reciter of hymns from the atharvaveda who was largely silent and observes the procedures and uses Atharvaveda mantras to 'heal' it when mistakes have been made.

Re: What did ancient languages sound like?

#119
post #5

You mean “What did ancient European languages sound like” perhaps? I would submit that Samskruta (NOT the anclicised Sanskrit) sounds exactly like how it did in ancient times. How come there is no discussion of that at all?

> How come there is no discussion of that at all? Leaving aside the linguistic debate in the comments here, there’s often no fair or truthful or representative discussion of the ancient East’s legacy (or others) for reasons relating to imperialism, colonialism, and supremacist thinking. I don’t mean that in the explicit “we’re taking over your country way” but in the more subtle or implicit ways. Western world views…

Afaik the original culture (take India) has been massively influenced by the English occupation and Mogul occupation.

Lots of the original way people thought, lived their culture and worshipped in their religion has changed.

Re: What did ancient languages sound like?

#120

TLDR: The difficult task of reproducing the pitch accents in Greek might be a step too far for most people, but consider the following line from Homer’s Iliad 1.345: ὣς φάτο Πάτροκλος δὲ φίλῳ ἐπεπείθεθ᾽ ἑταίρῳ It develops beautifully from sauntering labial alliteration (of p and ph sounds) to rapid-fire dental consonance (of th and t sounds), but if we pronounce Φ and Θ as fricatives here: https://antigonejournal.com…

Yeah, that was beautiful to hear the difference!
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