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I do not agree with Github's use of copyrighted code as training for Copilot

thelig.ht

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Re: I do not agree with Github's use of copyrighted code as training for Copilot

#411
post #34

I thought this was a pretty good thread (by an ex-Wikipedia lawyer) on Twitter about the IP meaning of Copilot. https://twitter.com/luis_in_brief/status/1410242882523459585... And this is a longer article about how IP and AI interact: https://ilr.law.uiowa.edu/print/volume-101-issue-2/copyright... I am not a lawyer, but I am capable of summarizing the thoughts of lawyers, so my take is that in general, fair use allow…

You sure about that? You aren't allowed to read it outside of the license attached to it. Downloading pirated source code, reading it, and then typing it out from memory doesn't magically give you a right to use it in any way. I would argue the licenses attached to most copyrighted code are being violated the moment the code is scraped and replicated without permission.

Re: I do not agree with Github's use of copyrighted code as training for Copilot

#412
post #401
post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> then you'd want to forbid contributors from using CoPilot I mean, if you used CoPilot on one computer, stared at it intensely for 1 hour, closed that computer, and then typed out code in the other computer that you were contributing from, you technically didn't use it for the contribution, you just used CoPilot for your education only. Intellectual property is itself a flawed concept in many ways. It's like asking…

Intellectual property itself is silly. How can a thought be the property of someone ? Secrecy is the solution if you don't want others to learn from you (like Coca-Cola does).

That's just words for you... Intellectual property isn't property, at least not a full-blown one.

http://www.av8n.com/physics/weird-terminology.htm

Re: I do not agree with Github's use of copyrighted code as training for Copilot

#413
I see lots of comments blaming MS about this turn of events. I think this project has been going on pre-MS.

But what did we expect from GitHub....MS or not? This was an obvious survival mechanism for GitHub sans MS. All that coding data there? Let's turn machine learning or AI onto that and make something.

And if MS were treating GitHub as an "at arms length" corporate entity so as to NOT to upset the opensource/free software community (because MS) then the blame lies fair and square with the management of GitHub.

Re: I do not agree with Github's use of copyrighted code as training for Copilot

#414
post #34

I thought this was a pretty good thread (by an ex-Wikipedia lawyer) on Twitter about the IP meaning of Copilot. https://twitter.com/luis_in_brief/status/1410242882523459585... And this is a longer article about how IP and AI interact: https://ilr.law.uiowa.edu/print/volume-101-issue-2/copyright... I am not a lawyer, but I am capable of summarizing the thoughts of lawyers, so my take is that in general, fair use allow…

[deleted]

Re: I do not agree with Github's use of copyrighted code as training for Copilot

#415
post #398
post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if there's no license, it's not the license that restricts but common copyright law.

If there's no license, then it's not open source. This is a term with a standard meaning, and it doesn't just mean that the source is available for reading

Ah right, I honestly did not know!

Still, if you come across some published source code that does not appear to be licensed and does not specifically define itself as being "Open Source" as defined by the "Open Source Initiative", copyright law applies and you're not allowed to just take it and use it.

GitHub specifically uses the words "source code from publicly available sources" when talking about what they used to train their model on.

As far as I'm aware public code repos aren't by default "Open Source" as defined by the "Open Source Initiative".

Re: I do not agree with Github's use of copyrighted code as training for Copilot

#416

Pretty sure copyright and IP laws don’t overrule innovation.

Innovation can take place so long as the right people are getting their deserved royalties. In this case, anyone whose code was used in the training set should get a lifetime royalty.

Re: I do not agree with Github's use of copyrighted code as training for Copilot

#417
post #34

I thought this was a pretty good thread (by an ex-Wikipedia lawyer) on Twitter about the IP meaning of Copilot. https://twitter.com/luis_in_brief/status/1410242882523459585... And this is a longer article about how IP and AI interact: https://ilr.law.uiowa.edu/print/volume-101-issue-2/copyright... I am not a lawyer, but I am capable of summarizing the thoughts of lawyers, so my take is that in general, fair use allow…

> As a human, I am allowed to read copyrighted code and learn from it. An AI should be allowed to do the same thing.

This is a non-sequitur. Why should it?

> And nobody cares if my ten-line "how to invert a binary tree" snippet is the same as someone else's.

Are you going to make up a rule for every length and type of code? What about twenty line? If ten lines are fine then surely twenty would be? How about pictures? If some code is then surely a picture or two wouldn't hurt? Let's just tweak the AI slightly so it regurgitates more code verbatim -- or do courts have to examine any change made to the AI and okay them?

> Nobody is really being hurt when a new tool makes it easier to copy little bits of code from the internet.

The Windows source code can be found on the internet. As a human you're allowed to read that if you have it. Try making an AI that copies bits of that into your code and release that on the internet.

Re: I do not agree with Github's use of copyrighted code as training for Copilot

#418
So I'm guessing we just need to wait for the court cases to resolve the various issues with this. Won't that be fun? But is that really likely?

My sense is that this is either:

a storm in a teacup;

a blackhole that swallows everything around it;

a massive copyright mess that piles up without anyone noticing then explodes all over everything;

or something else entirely.

The next few years will be interesting then. I'm wondering what happens if/when a significant chunk of GPL code gets included into a commercial product. That will get lively.

Popcorn with butter please.

Re: I do not agree with Github's use of copyrighted code as training for Copilot

#419
To avoid copyright issues could we do to do it how humans do it - with "clean-room design"?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_room_design

E.g.

1. Train one ML implementation to produce "specification text" in a way that they're agreed to be free from copyright claims. E.g. train to avoid any direct quoting, possibly via a different human, programming or custom specification language.

2. Train a separate ML implementation to produce code from the specifications.

3. Hook them together and you've got a pipeline for generating learned, but copyright-free, code.

Kind of reminds me a bit of some of the machine translation work with human languages.

Note: this is how the GNU project itself sometimes clones the functionality of copyright-free way, so I'm pretty sure it would be safe to use this on GPL-licensed code.

Re: I do not agree with Github's use of copyrighted code as training for Copilot

#420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Github is just the begining, they will crawl any open source code, crawling npm, pypi, cpan, public gitlab... If your code is open source, they will get it. That's kinda the point of open source.

I’d argue that this new use case is very interesting to open source and how it relates to the various licenses, and not necessarily “the point of open source”. I can imagine people being OK with their code being used as-is, and/or being modified, but not used completely out of context to train some corporate AI to inject code into commercial code based.

You can't give out something for free without limitations and then complain when someone uses it for something you didn't expect. Well you can complain but no one has to listen.

Githubs use seems very in the spirit of open data and code. Using open source to help others.

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