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The risky bat-virus engineering that links America to Wuhan

technologyreview.com

231–240 of 267 posts

Re: The risky bat-virus engineering that links America to Wuhan

#231
post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When nothing has a smoking gun, and you've got volumes more circumstantial evidence for one thing than another, it does not serve one well to stick their head in the sand and not move forward under the assumption both can be right. When you run into massive resistance to doing so, it only points one in the direction that there may be more to be uncovered in one direction than another. >Come on in guys, let's compare…

Smoking gun in the original SARS took 15 years to find and it was found in bats in a cave 1100 km away from the first outbreak. What exactly are you expecting two years into this outbreak? The "circumstantial evidence" is that pretty much all recent new infectious diseases in humans were traced to animals in the wild, or alternatively, sometimes not traced anywhere at all (Hepatitis C, anyone?). "Yes, but this one is…

https://project-evidence.github.io/

https://archive.is/tpxg1 (Nicholas Wade's excellent medium post, one hundred percent worth the read, Possibly duped in the Bulletin of atomic scientists shtick floating around right now.)

>https://archive.is/ONgMa Yuri Deigin's excellent write-up

I expect in the absence of a smoking gun, that people weigh the relative preponderance of evidence and do reasonable things. The preponderance of evidence clearly tilts in one direction over another, but the people closest to the subject matter at hand have rather tangible conflicts of interest in controls implemented if the story tilts against their preferred zoonotic spillover which conveniently absolves any human agency of responsibility.

Mother Nature throws us a curve ball every once in a while to keep us on our toes. Other humans do so with a probability approaching 1, and I see evidence of all the tools and expertise necessary to have constructed the ball from scratch, measure that, in fact, this is the ball that will curve the way we expect it to, and through it all I've seen the most grossly blatant active perception management of facts and science by media and government alike that I've ever had the misfortune to witness. I've had my eye on the community and volunteer collated pools of evidence and have actually been running down references and anomalies and watching things evolve since this first entered the public eye as rumors of a mysterious illness back in 2019, and even before that, when my interest was piqued by some seriously questionable research papers getting published every few years over the past decade in terms of "You were so busy wondering if you could, you never stopped to ponder if you should." I've done my level best to ensure that I fully delve into the subject area enough to actually form a reasonable stab at a fact based opinion, including integrating new info as it became available.

It's not my burden to prove zoonotic. I welcome those looking for it to find us the smoking gun we need to put lab-leak to bed. I also welcome lab-leak to do the same for zoonotic. Until then, I propose doing something about all the smoke in the room as it's a little odd how everyone just seems to have handwaved the possibility there is a fire making it.

In the grand scheme of things, the only people with anything more to lose are the ones most vocally advocating everyone not look behind the curtain, or actively making it more difficult to and that everyone else just doesn't understand.

I understand perfectly. China has sovereignty issues to deal with. They have a bunch of other red marks going on in terms of baggage foreign and domestic policy-wise and don't want to make it any easier for another one to get dropped on their doorstep. That's fine. I don't care half so much at this point.

I care that we've got a bunch of institutions at each other's throat trying to fist feed advantageous narratives and lies through omission instead of everybody putting all their cards on the damn table, and we're doing some of the most dangerous damn research I can conceive of in ways where it convenience of the researcher even comes into the picture. G-o-F on Viruses are the biological equivalent of bloody "let's make grey goo" in nanotech.

But I get it. That's life. It's absurd. It will continue to be absurd. People have to look at other people in the most uncaring or warped way to think helping anything along it's evolutionary path to human infectiveness is a good, viable research topic to take place anywhere near other people. I don't even begrudge Baric or Zengli Shi. I begrudge the complete lack of foresight and institutional self-reflection that surrounded this type of research even having all the necessary tools collected in one place without audit controls just in case this sort of thing ever came into question to keep it from blowing up in everyone's faces. assuming the risk it presents would ever be reasonably mitigated is the very definition of foolishness and blindness to human fallibility.

Re: The risky bat-virus engineering that links America to Wuhan

#232
post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, you seem to trust the Chinese administration to their word. I bet during Chernobyl we should have trusted the USSR for information too. And since this famous Chinese investigator said "oh no it wasn't romantic our lab" we should stop digging for the origin of the most catastrophic event since WW2

You're misunderstanding parent's post. Parent is neither trusting nor mistrusting the Chinese administration. They are simply explaining (and quoting) the article.

Then I disagree with both parent and article and taking my opinion which is that we don't know and cant trust what the Chinese say on the subject.

Re: The risky bat-virus engineering that links America to Wuhan

#233
post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a lack of evidence for any of the alternatives to disprove the lab hypothesis I'm not sure that "disprove my wild hypothesis" is how proving things works.

When nothing has a smoking gun, and you've got volumes more circumstantial evidence for one thing than another, it does not serve one well to stick their head in the sand and not move forward under the assumption both can be right. When you run into massive resistance to doing so, it only points one in the direction that there may be more to be uncovered in one direction than another. >Come on in guys, let's compare…

The circumstantial evidence is that the initial outbreak was concentrated in a wildlife market in Wuhan, on the opposite side of the city from the lab. The SARS outbreak began in a nearly identical way, in a wildlife market in a large city, 1000 km away from where the bats live.

There's no evidence that the lab had this virus previously, and there's actually good evidence that they didn't have it (they publish on the viruses they discover, and they never published this virus).

Re: The risky bat-virus engineering that links America to Wuhan

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no legally spelled out condition, but one editorializes content and the other is content agnostic. The justification of 230's existence is that the host shouldn't be liable, because it's not their speech. That's no longer true if they're picking and choosing what gets heard, what gets buried, and what gets banned. They may not be typing the post, but they're determining what actually gets said. And that means…

> The justification of 230's existence is that the host shouldn't be liable, because it's not their speech. > That's no longer true if they're picking and choosing what gets heard, what gets buried, and what gets banned. No, its not. That's approximately the traditional justification for distributors having more limited liability than publishers. Section 230 was expressly adopted to allow platforms to act like publis…

>specifically to pick and choose what gets heard, what gets buried, and what gets banned.

BS. It covered liability for third party speech. It allowed controversial things to be said without the host being liable for hosting them.

Private censorship of controversial speech is the complete opposite of it's purpose.

>"No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be treated as the publisher or speaker of any information provided by another information content provider"

If you only allow speakers to be heard that agree with you, you are the speaker.

If you only publish things that you agree with you are a publisher.

The law shields hosts in exchange for providing a place for free speech. If you no longer provide that space, you no longer deserve the protections it affords.

The behavior we see now is exactly the behavior that 230 was meant to prevent: sites being overly protective and aggressively policing what gets posted. 230 was passed so they wouldn't have to do it. It's not an excuse for them to do it anyway.

No one forsaw that the hosts would actually want an excuse to censor users.

Re: The risky bat-virus engineering that links America to Wuhan

#235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no legally spelled out condition, but one editorializes content and the other is content agnostic. The justification of 230's existence is that the host shouldn't be liable, because it's not their speech. That's no longer true if they're picking and choosing what gets heard, what gets buried, and what gets banned. They may not be typing the post, but they're determining what actually gets said. And that means…

This is the way you think the law ought to work not how it is in fact written.

>"No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be treated as the publisher or speaker of any information provided by another information content provider"

That's how it's written. It provides protection for hosting controversial content posted by users, based on the fact that the host didn't write it, endorse it, or promote it.

If the host has an active hand in doing those things, they are no longer merely hosting. Same goes for surpressing or censoring.

The "another content provider" means the host is not involved in determining the content. But treating posts differently based on that content is not meaningfully different than an editor choosing what to publish.

Re: The risky bat-virus engineering that links America to Wuhan

#236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not making an argument, I’m summarizing the article. Here’s the relevant sentence: > The genetic code of SARS-CoV-2 does not resemble that of any virus the WIV was known to be culturing in its lab, such as WIV1

Again, you seem to trust the Chinese administration to their word. I bet during Chernobyl we should have trusted the USSR for information too. And since this famous Chinese investigator said "oh no it wasn't romantic our lab" we should stop digging for the origin of the most catastrophic event since WW2

The Chinese can't go back in time and change things they said before the pandemic. The viruses that the Wuhan Institute of Virology works with are fairly well known, because the WIV has published numerous papers on them.

We know, for example, that the WIV has three live coronaviruses that it works with. None of them is close to SARS-CoV-2.

We also know about a whole range of other viruses they've discovered (by sequencing RNA fragments), but which they haven't been able to culture in the lab. These include RaTG13, which they first published on in 2016. It's significant that among all these viruses they've published on over the years, none is similar enough to SARS-CoV-2 to be its ancestor.

I'll just add that some of the people we're talking about here, like Dr. Shi Zhengli, are very highly respected scientists who have contributed a huge amount to the field of virology. Just accusing them of lying with zero evidence is in pretty poor taste.

Re: The risky bat-virus engineering that links America to Wuhan

#237

There’s going to be a ton of comments on the lab security aspects, but there are two other big takeaways from this article: 1) Researchers easily found multiple naturally occurring coronaviruses that seemed likely to be able to jump into humans. In fact that is why they were so eager to conduct that lab research: the natural threat seemed imminent. 2) The sequence of COVID-19 does not yet resemble any of the sequence…

Incorrect. The RBD was a 90+ percent match to a pangolin coronavirus, the backbone was 90% + match to a sample collected from bats in Guangdong if I recall correctly, and you had GoF techniques in play that enabled seamless porting of nucleotide sequences that left no traces of gene edits. We've gone over it in previous articles... Capabilities. Not motivations. Never ever lose sight of that. You will never know what…

A 10% difference is massive for a 30k-base virus. In the public mind, "gain of function" has gained the aura of some sort of black magic, but creating SARS-CoV-2 from any combination of known viruses is beyond the capability of any lab. The amount of effort you'd have to put into it would be astronomical, and all for no apparent scientific reason. This line of speculation really is completely separated from reality.

Re: The risky bat-virus engineering that links America to Wuhan

#238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the way you think the law ought to work not how it is in fact written.

>"No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be treated as the publisher or speaker of any information provided by another information content provider" That's how it's written. It provides protection for hosting controversial content posted by users, based on the fact that the host didn't write it, endorse it, or promote it. If the host has an active hand in doing those things, they are no longer m…

There is no clause matching your assertion in the rather short law passed 25 years ago and no case law asserting your erroneous interpretation. I'd ask you to provide such but we both know there is none. Neither editorial selection nor removal has anything to do with 230 immunity. The law is working as written and intended.

It isn't merely a grey area. The law was deliberately intended to support editorial selection and even deletion of content offensive to the platform owners sensibilities while explicitly preserving their protection from liability for their users content. This is supported by a plain reading of the text and the words of the men who wrote it.

First the law

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/47/230

> No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be held liable on account of—

> (A) any action voluntarily taken in good faith to restrict access to or availability of material that the provider or user considers to be obscene, lewd, lascivious, filthy, excessively violent, harassing, or otherwise objectionable, whether or not such material is constitutionally protected; or

>(B) any action taken to enable or make available to information content providers or others the technical means to restrict access to material described in paragraph (1).[1]

Now the words of Ron Wyden

>Republican Congressman Chris Cox and I wrote Section 230 in 1996 to give up-and-coming tech companies a sword and a shield, and to foster free speech and innovation online. Essentially, 230 says that users, not the website that hosts their content, are the ones responsible for what they post, whether on Facebook or in the comments section of a news article. That's what I call the shield.

> But it also gave companies a sword so that they can take down offensive content, lies and slime — the stuff that may be protected by the First Amendment but that most people do not want to experience online. And so they are free to take down white supremacist content or flag tweets that glorify violence (as Twitter did with President Trump's recent tweet) without fear of being sued for bias or even of having their site shut down.

Your positions isn't merely incorrect it is directly counterfactual. It's an example of replacing actual known reality with the counterfactual in order to obtain a rhetorical advantage.

It is more advantageous to start from the lie that platform owners have somehow been violating or abusing the law outrageously and something must be done about it compared to the actual reality that the law is working as intended and you wish to change it because there is both a general feeling that existing laws and privileges ought to be enforced and that new laws need be examined before being enacted.

The prevalence of people of a particular political stripe to literally just making up alternative facts in response to inconvenient reality is deeply challenging to productive dialogue because its impossible to start out with a reasonable basis for discussion one must instead rewind to figure out which part of your fellows assumptions are based on purely fabricated reality. I expect you have taken it as a given that the line you were fed was based on reality. You are mistaken. I strongly encourage you to read both the laws and the words of the man who cowrote it.

Re: The risky bat-virus engineering that links America to Wuhan

#239
post #162
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mentioned this twice. "Contributed to real death." What do you mean specifically? Don't just use it as a scare quote. It's not a good enough justification anyway.

Ashli Babbit, officer sicknick, and a few others all died due to a conspiracy theory spread on Facebook. Many others are threatened every day because of these conspiracy theories.

By this reasoning you could call critical race theory a conspiracy and say it "contributed to real death" through the 2020 summer protests and riots.

Re: The risky bat-virus engineering that links America to Wuhan

#240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be treated as the publisher or speaker of any information provided by another information content provider" That's how it's written. It provides protection for hosting controversial content posted by users, based on the fact that the host didn't write it, endorse it, or promote it. If the host has an active hand in doing those things, they are no longer m…

There is no clause matching your assertion in the rather short law passed 25 years ago and no case law asserting your erroneous interpretation. I'd ask you to provide such but we both know there is none. Neither editorial selection nor removal has anything to do with 230 immunity. The law is working as written and intended. It isn't merely a grey area. The law was deliberately intended to support editorial selection…

>obscene, lewd, lascivious, filthy, excessively violent, harassing, or otherwise objectionable

The intent is clear from this list. It even implicitly allows violence as long as it's not excessive. It does not include anything about truth, or difference of opinion, or statements that aren't "backed by the science".

It also requires a "good faith" interpretation, which would be irrelevant if hosts were allowed to act on any criteria they wish.

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