Why Apple’s ITC patent victory over HTC Android phones is scary • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Apple’s ITC patent victory over HTC Android phones is scary

#101

Post by kjksf » Sat, Jul 16, 2011, 10:41 PM UTC

Kylekramer wrote: post #67

Bungholio wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if Apple are against software patents (IIRC this is their official stance) then that leaves us having to believe what they say and not what they do. BTW, why is it Google's responsibility to "spend billions dismantling the patent system"?

Apple is definitely not opposed to patents. I remember slides from the original iPhone announcement touting how much they patented their multitouch system (which apparently wasn't that well considering how I don't see those patents in any of their suits).

At the same time Steve Jobs is openly and repeatedly quoting Picasso's "Good artists copy. Great artists steal." (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CW0DUg63lqU for one example) which directly contradicts the "let's monopolize ideas" trend.

They say often whatever is convenient and aligned with profit motif at most times and the truth some times.

Apple (i.e. Jobs) publicly talks about how many ideas they have monopoly on to scare competition, reassure analysts and because it the current legal system it is a great advantage. That's the profit motive speaking.

At times, when talking about necessity of stealing other people's ideas, Jobs speaks the truth because we all know that everything we build is an improvement on something else. Once we patent everything, there will be nothing to build on. No ability for new people to disloge incumbents by improving on what they did in the past and therefore no incentive for incumbents to improve. Why spend effort improving things if you can collect just as much money by selling the stuff you did 5 years ago?

Re: Why Apple’s ITC patent victory over HTC Android phones is scary

#102

Post by erikpukinskis » Sat, Jul 16, 2011, 10:46 PM UTC

rufugee wrote: post #68

Why do we not see video game patents? Why don't we see, for example, Rockstar patenting "a mechanism for allowing a character to navigate a three dimensional space" and then suing the hell out of everyone else?

That wouldn't be fun.

Re: Why Apple’s ITC patent victory over HTC Android phones is scary

#103

Post by soulinafishbowl » Sat, Jul 16, 2011, 10:49 PM UTC

rbarooah wrote: post #64

soulinafishbowl wrote: post #7

Apple and Lodsys are in the same category.

Right because Lodsys also transformed the landscape of the mobile industry by selling a revolutionary new device that everyone else is competing with.

Ah, I sense sarcasm. I suppose without explanation, my comment is too harsh, and I come off as an Apple hater.

Quite the opposite, I love my MacBook Pro and iPad, and I think Apple's products are great. But that is exactly why I am so disappointed to hear that they are now exhibiting the same behavior as Lodsys, which we have come to hate.

In the spirit of transforming the landscape and creating revolutionary devices, attacking HTC and Android is a great disappointment to me. I am very regretful that our generation's best and brightest people and corporations are caught up in these legal and corporate squabbles. Their energy could be better spent on innovation or solving real problems.

Re: Why Apple’s ITC patent victory over HTC Android phones is scary

#104

Post by soulinafishbowl » Sat, Jul 16, 2011, 10:52 PM UTC

jlampart wrote: post #9

I say this will spell the end of the US patent system before it spells the end of HTC or Android.

It has got to come to an end soon. Too much time and energy is being spent on these ridiculous legal issues and not enough on moving forward.

Re: Why Apple’s ITC patent victory over HTC Android phones is scary

#105

Post by astrange » Sat, Jul 16, 2011, 11:01 PM UTC

rufugee wrote: post #68

Why do we not see video game patents? Why don't we see, for example, Rockstar patenting "a mechanism for allowing a character to navigate a three dimensional space" and then suing the hell out of everyone else?

Namco owns a patent on minigames during loading screens.

Re: Why Apple’s ITC patent victory over HTC Android phones is scary

#106

Post by rbarooah » Sat, Jul 16, 2011, 11:52 PM UTC

soulinafishbowl wrote: post #103

rbarooah wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right because Lodsys also transformed the landscape of the mobile industry by selling a revolutionary new device that everyone else is competing with.

Ah, I sense sarcasm. I suppose without explanation, my comment is too harsh, and I come off as an Apple hater. Quite the opposite, I love my MacBook Pro and iPad, and I think Apple's products are great. But that is exactly why I am so disappointed to hear that they are now exhibiting the same behavior as Lodsys, which we have come to hate. In the spirit of transforming the landscape and creating revolutionary devices…

Fair points. You did come off as a hater, but not now that you've explained what you were thinking.

I'm very sympathetic to then negative effects of NPEs and of patents in general inhibiting smaller players.

On the other hand, I think there's a genuine case to be made that knockoff products undermine the value of expensive and risky R&D projects that have led to very real and significant innovations.

Consider the iPad - even after it was announced, commentators and executives in the industry were dismissing it. Only once it started selling in volume did the competitors suddenly jump into action.

The implication is that the rest of the industry simply didn't have the imagination or risk-tolerance to do the R&D. I would like to see more incentives for other players in the industry to do the kind of innovating that Apple has done - not less.

Sure you can argue that minor spec tweaks and UI variants are 'innovation', and I'd agree that this kind of competition is actually keeping Apple on its toes. There's certainly a place for a leader and followers both to provide value.

But a balance has to be struck. If it really is ok for any product to just be cloned as closely as possible, I think there will be less R&D done, not more.

Re: Why Apple’s ITC patent victory over HTC Android phones is scary

#107

Post by prodigal_erik » Sun, Jul 17, 2011, 12:24 AM UTC

semanticist wrote: post #19

meow wrote: post #12

I don't get it, isn't licensing the whole point of software patents.. sharing IP with the world and receiving royalties in return ? So how can Apple refuse to license the patent to HTC ?

The purpose of patents is to share the IP with the world, in return for a period of exclusivity. The decision to licence the technology in return for money is entirely down to the patent holder.

In particular there is no requirement that patents be licensable on reasonable and non-discriminatory terms, nor that what society at large pays for access to the invention is less than it would have cost to have each competitor independently recreate it. Terms this generous should only be offered for inventions we're confident wouldn't have existed otherwise for any price. We shouldn't be enabling massive rent-seeking for straightforward improvements.

Re: Why Apple’s ITC patent victory over HTC Android phones is scary

#108

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Jul 17, 2011, 7:38 PM UTC

raganwald wrote: post #32

There are three salient questions: First, is Apple a troll seeking rents or a functioning entity that invests in research and seeks to make money from products? Second, are the patents valid given the current patent system and laws (prior art, obviousness, &c) or not. And third, is the current system broken? I think there's room to debate the second and third points. But with respect to the first point, Apple is usin…

[deleted]

Re: Why Apple’s ITC patent victory over HTC Android phones is scary

#109

Post by podperson » Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 1:45 PM UTC

georgemcbay wrote: post #99

podperson wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure it was nice viewing Windows 3.1 and Windows 95 with pride. It was probably wonderful being proud of Bill Gates trademarking the term "PDA" after hearing John Sculley use it in a talk. It's probably pretty flattering to see Google switching from designing Android as a blackberry clone to designing it as an iPhone clone. To paraphrase a joke from the last depression: $5 and some pride gets you a nice cup of co…

I'm sure it was nice viewing MacOS v1.0 with pride (if you worked at Xeroc PARC). It's kleptomaniac turtles all the way down!

Ah, this tired old chestnut.

If you actually ever used a Xerox desktop of the era you'll see that Mac OS was markedly simpler to use than Xerox's UI, and had all kinds of improvements over it (overlapping windows, drag and drop, a menubar than benefited from Fitt's Law).

Everyone steals ideas, but simply coping is pathetic.