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The risky bat-virus engineering that links America to Wuhan

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Re: The risky bat-virus engineering that links America to Wuhan

#161

Post by imiric »

snowwrestler wrote: post #107

There’s going to be a ton of comments on the lab security aspects, but there are two other big takeaways from this article: 1) Researchers easily found multiple naturally occurring coronaviruses that seemed likely to be able to jump into humans. In fact that is why they were so eager to conduct that lab research: the natural threat seemed imminent. 2) The sequence of COVID-19 does not yet resemble any of the sequence…

> 2) The sequence of COVID-19 does not yet resemble any of the sequences associated with the lab research that was being conducted.

This doesn't discount the possibility of a lab leak if you take into account that some sequences appear to have been deleted[1].

We shouldn't make assumptions based on lack of evidence if that evidence was tampered with. And given China's history of deliberately concealing facts to save face, this raises far more questions than it answers. We need a serious and trustworthy investigation into what happened that puts politics aside. Alas my hopes for that happening are slim to none.

[1]: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/23/science/coronavirus-seque...

Re: The risky bat-virus engineering that links America to Wuhan

#162

Post by waldoh »

beaner wrote: post #61
devwastaken wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Blanket ban. Even mentioning coronavirus can get your video demonitized. YouTube and Facebook have a significant problem of actual artificial conspiracy theories that have contributed to real death.

You mentioned this twice. "Contributed to real death." What do you mean specifically? Don't just use it as a scare quote. It's not a good enough justification anyway.

Ashli Babbit, officer sicknick, and a few others all died due to a conspiracy theory spread on Facebook. Many others are threatened every day because of these conspiracy theories.

Re: The risky bat-virus engineering that links America to Wuhan

#164

Post by DiogenesKynikos »

imiric wrote: post #161
snowwrestler wrote: post #107

There’s going to be a ton of comments on the lab security aspects, but there are two other big takeaways from this article: 1) Researchers easily found multiple naturally occurring coronaviruses that seemed likely to be able to jump into humans. In fact that is why they were so eager to conduct that lab research: the natural threat seemed imminent. 2) The sequence of COVID-19 does not yet resemble any of the sequence…

> 2) The sequence of COVID-19 does not yet resemble any of the sequences associated with the lab research that was being conducted. This doesn't discount the possibility of a lab leak if you take into account that some sequences appear to have been deleted[1]. We shouldn't make assumptions based on lack of evidence if that evidence was tampered with. And given China's history of deliberately concealing facts to save…

> some sequences appear to have been deleted

That is a completely unrelated issue. The sequences you're talking about are sequences from patients (obtained in February 2020, I believe). They are not bat coronavirus sequences, which is what the poster above you is referring to. The Wuhan Institute of Virology publishes the sequences it discovers. RaTG13, the closest known relative of SARS-CoV-2, was published in 2016, for example.

Even if we're talking about the patient data, even though the authors withdrew their raw data from a database, they still published the most important information in a paper: the genetic sequences.

Re: The risky bat-virus engineering that links America to Wuhan

#165

Post by gnicholas »

opiopi wrote: post #153

For anyone interested in what these labs look like, the podcast "TWiV" (This Week in Virology) did a video where they visit Boston's BSL-4. Software engineers might appreciate the simplicity with which redundant failsafes are attained - each Biosafety Level being contained by a less safe abstraction. Thus a BSL-4 lab is essentially 4 labs built inside themselves, like a Matryoshka doll for pathogens. https://www.yout…

Very interesting. Apparently the BSL-4 lab is engineered to ensure that that it resonates at a different frequency than the larger structure, for additional safety in case of an earthquake.

https://youtu.be/tqAjkjGq8Ug?t=612

Re: The risky bat-virus engineering that links America to Wuhan

#166

Post by arisAlexis »

snowwrestler wrote: post #107

There’s going to be a ton of comments on the lab security aspects, but there are two other big takeaways from this article: 1) Researchers easily found multiple naturally occurring coronaviruses that seemed likely to be able to jump into humans. In fact that is why they were so eager to conduct that lab research: the natural threat seemed imminent. 2) The sequence of COVID-19 does not yet resemble any of the sequence…

How do you know 2? It is documented that the Chinese deleted sequences from a global database. Also how naive can we be thinking they have given WHO access to all the research? They didn't. So remove argument 2.

Re: The risky bat-virus engineering that links America to Wuhan

#168

Post by erostrate »

raphlinus wrote: post #119
erostrate wrote: post #111

An interesting aspect of the evolution of the lab leak theory is the unhealthy relation of mainstream media to scientific research. When the Andersen paper came out conflating the lab leak theory with the crazy bioweapon theory and lumping both as conspiracy theories, all mainstream medias jumped on this and used it for several month to quash discussion of the lab leak theory. The most vocal were the "science corresp…

I second your recommendation of Alina Chan, as she has the scientific credentials, is careful with the science, and as you say is balanced in that she doesn't dismiss the natural origins hypothesis either. If people want to be informed about multiple perspectives of this debate, she is a must-follow. That said, let me temper that with some skepticism. First, having got a book deal[1] she is now in the position of dir…

Thanks for pointing that out. I agree with your first point about the book deal.

On your second point, she has stated repeatedly and explicitly that her position is that she doesn't know what the origin of the virus is, natural origin is not ruled out either, and that all she is asking for is that both theories are credibly investigated, for example here [1]. Of course she talks a lot more about the lab leak, but that's largely because she feels this side has not been discussed sufficiently, which was certainly true until 2/3 months ago.

On your third point, you're right that she truncated the quote, but I think her interpretation is the one many readers would come to: "lab leak=conspiracy theory". The quote is dishonestly structured to start with, lumping together lab leak with 5G/Bill Gates silliness. It's the same mistake that the Andersen paper made lumping lab leak with bioweapon. I wouldn't count that as a win on either side.

[1] https://twitter.com/ayjchan/status/1411049136762327043?s=21

Re: The risky bat-virus engineering that links America to Wuhan

#169

Post by ChemSpider »

opiopi wrote: post #153

For anyone interested in what these labs look like, the podcast "TWiV" (This Week in Virology) did a video where they visit Boston's BSL-4. Software engineers might appreciate the simplicity with which redundant failsafes are attained - each Biosafety Level being contained by a less safe abstraction. Thus a BSL-4 lab is essentially 4 labs built inside themselves, like a Matryoshka doll for pathogens. https://www.yout…

BSL4 or not is not really important anymore, as Dr. Shi did her experiments in a BSL2 lab. From the article:

"Unnoticed by most, however, was a key difference that significantly shifted the risk calculation. The Chinese work was carried out at biosafety level 2 (BSL-2), a much lower tier than Baric’s BSL-3+."

BSL2 is not much more than "wear a lab coat". https://consteril.com/biosafety-levels-difference/

So the nicest BSL4 lab does not help if you do not use it.

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