Condo boards everywhere are unprepared for serious repairs • Hacker News Board

Re: Condo boards everywhere are unprepared for serious repairs

#91

Post by cardiffspaceman » Fri, Jul 02, 2021, 9:03 PM UTC

phlipski wrote: post #7

I sat on my condo board for a decade and was president for two years. My experience is that the board is not the problem - the non board sitting owners are. Our complex was comprised of 5 separate 3 story buildings. Three of those building had bad water leaking problems but when we tried to raise money for repairs - the people who weren't suffering any interior water damage wouldn't vote yes. Many buyers don't read t…

Congratulations on successfully politicking to get those repairs funded.

I lived in a condo complex where the association had its VP resign, so I put my hat in the ring, and even though my track record was only speaking up and attending meetings, I won with N-1 votes out of N.

The board put forward a resolution, which passed by a huge majority, to make most large, non-monthly costs special assessments. The resolution came with written language about how people were going to have to fund their share of large costs like roof fixes from their savings. I though this was reasonable.

The special case here is that 60 units were owned as individual residences and 300 units were owned by a corporation and rented like apartments. So I was amazed that they voted all their votes for me in the VP election, and not amazed that they would want to fund roof repair and such the new way.

The Surfside situation would not have been changed by the resolution about funding repairs. If that corporation had looked at our building before taking over, and saw what the inspectors saw in Surfside, they wouldn't have bought in in the first place.

Re: Condo boards everywhere are unprepared for serious repairs

#92

Post by toomuchtodo » Fri, Jul 02, 2021, 9:06 PM UTC

klodolph wrote: post #89

toomuchtodo wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The condo board is already required to perform repairs to keep the building up to code. A collapsed condo building disagrees.

> A collapsed condo building disagrees. That's a really cutesy way of putting it. My take on this is that the building codes in Florida are perhaps too lax, although I'm not an expert on building codes. From the reports I've been reading, the relevant inspections were to be done on a 40-year interval, and the building lasted less than 40 years (so its first inspection, in service, was never conducted). This, to me, i…

It’s about incentives. If you try to tighten building codes, developers will fight tooth and nail to prioritize profits over more durable and longer lasting housing (and everyone will complain housing isn’t affordable). If you tighten maintenance and life safety reviews and upkeep, owners will vote you out of office (either your condo board or local government) because they don’t want to spend the money (or failing voting you out, stonewall approving repairs as long as possible).

You need an independent party that can force life safety repairs when necessary (which, in this most recent case, should’ve been Surfside’s building dept), and longer term, some development will likely be entirely off limits due to financial unsustainability (as you elude to).

Re: Condo boards everywhere are unprepared for serious repairs

#93

Post by somethoughts » Fri, Jul 02, 2021, 9:15 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #88

somethoughts wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree and perhaps a better way to frame it would be, countries mostly start out as HOAs and then experience a ton of expansion and scope creep in their charter over the 5-10 centuries of their existence. > Probably the biggest gap in this thinking: if you don't like your HOA, you can sell your house. In this market there's no lack of buyers and you have tons of options – other HOAs, unencumbered properties, etc. This…

> countries mostly start out as HOAs and then experience a ton of expansion and scope creep in their charter over the 5-10 centuries of their existence. [citation needed] > There used to be 100's of independent HOAs in the US in 1700's, they then consolidated to 13 colonies and then 200 years of further consolidation and voila - the country known as the United States. That’s...not accurate even as a very loose analog…

Its interesting - we sometimes think of HOAs as being overly restrictive but if you read the charters for the original colonial settlements in the US, their HOA charters governed every aspect of life for the residents. These companies, such as the Virginia Company, were very much private, for profit, development companies.

"In addition to survival, the early colonists had another pressing mission: to make a profit for the stockholders of the Virginia Company... The Company plastered street corners with tempting broadsheets, published persuasive articles, and even convinced the clergy to preach of the virtues of supporting colonization. Before the Company was dissolved, it would publish 27 books and pamphlets promoting the Virginia venture.

To make shares more marketable, the Virginia Company changed its sales pitch. Instead of promising instant returns and vast profits for investors, the Company exploited patriotic sentiment and national pride."

https://www.nps.gov/jame/learn/historyculture/the-virginia-c...

"John White continued to seek funding for a colony. On 19 March 1627/8, the Council for New England issued a land grant to a new group of investors that included a few from the Dorchester Company. The land grant was for territory between the Charles River and Merrimack River that extended from "the Atlantick and westerne sea and ocean on the east parte, to the South sea on the west parte."[21] The company to whom the grant was sold was styled "The New England Company for a Plantation in Massachusetts Bay".[22] The company elected Matthew Cradock as its first governor and immediately began organizing provisions and recruiting settlers."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massachusetts_Bay_Colony#Legal...

On the flip side, there are active proposals in Nevada for community associations that self-govern - replete with police, fire, school system and their own digital currency:

"For this to happen, Mr Berns says a new model of local government is needed in Nevada. This government would have powers to raise taxes, enforce the law, and administer public services such as schools, utilities and transport."

Nevada smart city: A millionaire’s plan to create a local government:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-56409924

Re: Condo boards everywhere are unprepared for serious repairs

#94

Post by klodolph » Fri, Jul 02, 2021, 9:30 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #92

klodolph wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A collapsed condo building disagrees. That's a really cutesy way of putting it. My take on this is that the building codes in Florida are perhaps too lax, although I'm not an expert on building codes. From the reports I've been reading, the relevant inspections were to be done on a 40-year interval, and the building lasted less than 40 years (so its first inspection, in service, was never conducted). This, to me, i…

It’s about incentives. If you try to tighten building codes, developers will fight tooth and nail to prioritize profits over more durable and longer lasting housing (and everyone will complain housing isn’t affordable). If you tighten maintenance and life safety reviews and upkeep, owners will vote you out of office (either your condo board or local government) because they don’t want to spend the money (or failing v…

What makes the incentives in your proposal different? If the city is coming in and mandating repairs, then their authority comes from laws, which were passed by politicians, who can be voted out of office by condo owners.

Re: Condo boards everywhere are unprepared for serious repairs

#95

Post by toomuchtodo » Fri, Jul 02, 2021, 9:35 PM UTC

klodolph wrote: post #94

toomuchtodo wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s about incentives. If you try to tighten building codes, developers will fight tooth and nail to prioritize profits over more durable and longer lasting housing (and everyone will complain housing isn’t affordable). If you tighten maintenance and life safety reviews and upkeep, owners will vote you out of office (either your condo board or local government) because they don’t want to spend the money (or failing v…

What makes the incentives in your proposal different? If the city is coming in and mandating repairs, then their authority comes from laws, which were passed by politicians, who can be voted out of office by condo owners.

Usually, I think you’d be right, but this is a great opportunity to use this crisis and the Surfside tragedy to enact robust measures along these lines. Regulations are written in blood as they say. A firefighter had to recover the body of his 7 year old daughter out of the rubble pile. Hard to take the other side of the argument while this is occurring, and I wouldn’t wish that on my worst enemy.

Re: Condo boards everywhere are unprepared for serious repairs

#96

Post by klodolph » Fri, Jul 02, 2021, 9:43 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #95

klodolph wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes the incentives in your proposal different? If the city is coming in and mandating repairs, then their authority comes from laws, which were passed by politicians, who can be voted out of office by condo owners.

Usually, I think you’d be right, but this is a great opportunity to use this crisis and the Surfside tragedy to enact robust measures along these lines. Regulations are written in blood as they say. A firefighter had to recover the body of his 7 year old daughter out of the rubble pile. Hard to take the other side of the argument while this is occurring, and I wouldn’t wish that on my worst enemy.

Wouldn't we be able to tighten building codes and enforcement / inspection in Florida for exactly the same reason?

Re: Condo boards everywhere are unprepared for serious repairs

#97

Post by toomuchtodo » Fri, Jul 02, 2021, 9:44 PM UTC

klodolph wrote: post #96

toomuchtodo wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Usually, I think you’d be right, but this is a great opportunity to use this crisis and the Surfside tragedy to enact robust measures along these lines. Regulations are written in blood as they say. A firefighter had to recover the body of his 7 year old daughter out of the rubble pile. Hard to take the other side of the argument while this is occurring, and I wouldn’t wish that on my worst enemy.

Wouldn't we be able to tighten building codes and enforcement / inspection in Florida for exactly the same reason?

Maybe! Really depends on the appetite of the Florida legislature and the governor. With DeSantis eyeing a 2024 presidential run, it could be feasible. Hard to say. Without state efforts, it’d be up to each local government.

Re: Condo boards everywhere are unprepared for serious repairs

#98

Post by toast0 » Fri, Jul 02, 2021, 9:45 PM UTC

salicideblock wrote: post #62

015UUZn8aEvW wrote: post #29

It’s not clear that condo units have higher long-term capex costs than single-family homes; arguably economies of scale make their capex lower as a percentage of home value. So the problem isn’t a problem of cost per se, it’s a collective action problem. The issue is that the buyers of condo units don’t really pay much attention to the condo association’s reserve balance. A current owner who contributes $1 to the res…

That problem is completely avoided in Belgian law, via the following rule: When you sell your fraction, you get the corresponding share of the reserves. When you buy a fraction, you must contribute the corresponding share of the reserves.

If the buyer brings $X for the reserve, and the reserve gives $X to the seller, the reserve stays the same, and it's as if the buyer gave $X to the seller... Wouldn't that be tend to be reflected in the sales prices? A buyer may only be able to afford $Y, so the sales price would tend towards $Y - $X.

Re: Condo boards everywhere are unprepared for serious repairs

#99

Post by x0x0 » Fri, Jul 02, 2021, 10:02 PM UTC

mooreds wrote: post #55

phlipski wrote: post #7

I sat on my condo board for a decade and was president for two years. My experience is that the board is not the problem - the non board sitting owners are. Our complex was comprised of 5 separate 3 story buildings. Three of those building had bad water leaking problems but when we tried to raise money for repairs - the people who weren't suffering any interior water damage wouldn't vote yes. Many buyers don't read t…

I was on a condo board for two years. We had regular reserve studies and raised dues almost every single year (1-5%). When I talked to other homeowners and prospective home buyers, they always said "seems like dues are pretty high for that complex". It isn't fun to pay dues that are ~50% of your mortgage payment. But we were able to pay for repaving the parking lot (5 figure project, I think, I was off the board by t…

I read somewhere -- unfortunately can't find it -- that the fees for the repairs to the collapsed condo where $90k-ish for even the smallest units there.

I can't imagine a world where you get an inspection done and residents get told congrats! you owe $100-$350k (depending on the size of your unit) where that isn't a glacially slow process that doesn't generate lots of pushback.

Particularly in Florida where I bet you have lots of retired folks living in those condos.

edit: I was off on the numbers. $80k for the smallest units to $336k for a penthouse [1]. Doesn't really change my conclusion about how folks react when they wake up and get a low six figure bill

[1] https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/28/us/surfside-condo-owners-asse...

Re: Condo boards everywhere are unprepared for serious repairs

#100

Post by tomatotomato37 » Fri, Jul 02, 2021, 10:09 PM UTC

ashtonkem wrote: post #64

Condo issues aside, another takeaway is that reinforced concrete is a bad material as it’s currently used. You’re lucky to get 50 years out of it with perfect maintenance, and places like Florida are even worse because any water ingress is guaranteed to be salt water. A much more reasonable approach would be to ban iron or steel reinforced concrete in new Florida construction, but I doubt that the government would be…

You'd be surprised. Florida has some of the highest building standards in accordance to disaster/hurricane protection in the US thanks to the major hurricanes of the 80s; this may prove a watershed moment for the same to happen for corrosion prevention & maintenance standards today.

Of course that won't do anything for buildings already standing (in fact this condo would have also been rolled over by a hurricane too given its construction date) but it could be revolutionary for new construction