Live data from Hacker News

Condo boards everywhere are unprepared for serious repairs

slate.com

71–80 of 109 posts

Re: Condo boards everywhere are unprepared for serious repairs

#71
post #7

I sat on my condo board for a decade and was president for two years. My experience is that the board is not the problem - the non board sitting owners are. Our complex was comprised of 5 separate 3 story buildings. Three of those building had bad water leaking problems but when we tried to raise money for repairs - the people who weren't suffering any interior water damage wouldn't vote yes. Many buyers don't read t…

A fully rent only buildings are always easier in this regard.

Either the corporate landlord fixes things, or people vote with their feet.

Re: Condo boards everywhere are unprepared for serious repairs

#72
post #27
post #7

I sat on my condo board for a decade and was president for two years. My experience is that the board is not the problem - the non board sitting owners are. Our complex was comprised of 5 separate 3 story buildings. Three of those building had bad water leaking problems but when we tried to raise money for repairs - the people who weren't suffering any interior water damage wouldn't vote yes. Many buyers don't read t…

A good middle ground is condos with a central management company. Dues get a lot more expensive, yes, but residents can benefit from professional maintenance, repairs/renovations, assessments, book keeping etc. without needing to squabble among themselves.

Maybe. Real Estate investments tend to not use those companies because even though they should be good, many of them are bad. Not all, but be very careful to get a good one.

Re: Condo boards everywhere are unprepared for serious repairs

#73

It’s not clear that condo units have higher long-term capex costs than single-family homes; arguably economies of scale make their capex lower as a percentage of home value. So the problem isn’t a problem of cost per se, it’s a collective action problem. The issue is that the buyers of condo units don’t really pay much attention to the condo association’s reserve balance. A current owner who contributes $1 to the res…

> It’s not clear that condo units have higher long-term capex costs than single-family homes; arguably economies of scale make their capex lower

Economies of scale have to do with manufacturing identical units. Making 1000 is cheaper than making 10. But stacking units atop each other is not making identical units, so it is always cheaper to build 10 SFH than to build a single building with the same size 10 units stacked atop each other -- ignoring the extra price of land. When you go vertical, you need to set aside more space for services such as hvac and elevators. You need a stronger foundation. You need to deal with wind and earthquakes. You need to add emergency stairs in case the elvators go down. The walls have to be stronger, noise abatement needs to be added. You have systems in place to deal with vibrations. There is no attic in which to run HVAC. Air recirculation is a big concern in condos -- many don't even have windows that open, but they have enormous air filtration and pumping systems to get fresh air to all the units and maintain an air pressure difference. There are entire systems condos have to have that aren't even an issue in SFHs. And those systems require their own control systems, controlled by complex software and networks of sensors, with dedicated building staff to monitor and operate them. This is if nothing goes wrong. Thus the costs per livable square foot go up rapidly as you stack units atop each other, which is why you see condos only in places where land is very expensive. Everywhere else, it is cheaper to build a SFH. It is also why condos tend to be much smaller than SFH in terms of livable area per unit.

In terms of maintenance, all those extra systems condos need are more failure points. Structurally, you have much higher stresses, which requires additional supports and more complexity. All of that increases the damage when there is a failure and increases maintenance costs as there are more systems to maintain. Even something as simple as washing windows becomes really expensive in a condo. Electrical and water repairs that are simple and fast in a SFH can become major engineering projects in a condo. More complex systems that are harder to service and more dependencies add up to higher maintenance costs to match the higher construction costs.

Re: Condo boards everywhere are unprepared for serious repairs

#74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you elaborate on how this is different from the current system? With the current system, the condo board decides that repairs are needed, assesses fees, and makes the repairs. The fees are either paid immediately by the condo owners, or the HOA puts a lien on the condo. Local laws require larger buildings to be inspected on some scehdule... in New York I think there's a type of inspection (FSPM: fire safety and…

If the condo board doesn’t have the will or the unit owner votes to approve the work, it won’t be done.

Wouldn't it be more straightforward to tighten the building codes?

The condo board is already required to perform repairs to keep the building up to code.

Re: Condo boards everywhere are unprepared for serious repairs

#75
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The columns gave off signals; there's pictures from the reports of the concrete cracking and rusting rebar. There wasn't any need for fancier sensors and data recording technology than was used.

> There wasn't any need for fancier sensors and data recording technology than was used. Obviously there was. A common refrain in all the civil engineering discussions I'm reading is that this inspection report was in bottom 10%, perhaps bottom 1%, but not 0.00001% off the charts atypical. It's quite apparent that we need more dimensions of data—if for nothing else than to make it crystal clear when a situation is ap…

What if it wasn't atypical because there's lots of buildings showing damage like this? Coastal Florida, especially; is harsh environment for building and they've had 40+ years of "slap it together as fast and cheap as possible" construction there.

It don't matter how much data you have about the tidal wave bearing down on you; you has to move out of its way regardless.

Re: Condo boards everywhere are unprepared for serious repairs

#76
post #25
post #19

This has given me serious pause on buying a condo. If I rent the moment I have unfixed issues I can leave ( breaking a lease is pretty easy in my experience). But I'd hate to buy and then deal with bad neighbors or building issues

The same issue is with houses, and the bigger the house the bigger the issues can be. For a big condo complex, if a problem is truly big, the association can do a bond offering that can be paid off over a very long time (decades).

When it is my home I can make decisions. I can decide the pool isn't worth it and tear it out, or fix it. I can notice leaks before they cause structure problems (or choose not to fix them and face the more expensive bills). With a condo those choices are not yours, and the decisions might not be yours either.

Re: Condo boards everywhere are unprepared for serious repairs

#77
post #20

So, condos aren't that old in the US. Is there some similar structure in another country with older urban housing stock that works better? For demographic, environmental and economic reasons, it seems like more people will and should be living in cities with some density, so we need _some_ well-functioning arrangement for ownership for something other than single family homes. Is there not some country with a lot of…

In older urban areas in the US (particularly NYC), you often see co-op buildings. In a co-op, you buy shares in a corporation that owns the building and get a proprietary lease entitling you to use of a certain amount of space, while in a condo you are buying the deed to the individual apartment you own. On paper they're different means to the same end. In practice, condos typically have much less stringent approval…

An interesting difference is in the case of foreclosure. I believe in the case of a co-op the co-op fees take precedence over the lending bank being made whole, while in the case of a condo the bank is made whole first. There are also subtle differences in the foreclosure process. In judicial states (where a foreclosure must be signed off by a judge) co-op foreclosures are typically non-judicial.

Re: Condo boards everywhere are unprepared for serious repairs

#78
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really. Maybe it's more pronounced in specific areas of the US. I know plenty of people who care about their local communities and neighbors.

Everything is fine and dandy when everyone is experiencing growth. But there is a point where when sacrifices need to be made, things start getting tribal real fast. I think there is an underlying trend of that due to certain populations’ socioeconomic status slipping, and I think with the slowdown in population growth, we will be seeing more if it as society decides how to allocate fewer resources.

Maybe the area I grew up I was different. Economical depressed areas like much of Appalachia tend to have a good community atmosphere. I wouldn't be surprised if that's just small towns in general though. You look out for yourself, but you help your neighbors. You want something new, like equiptment in the park? Raise the money with fundraisers, find volunteers to build/install/maintain it, etc. These are the people who dont expect things to be handled to them, only for the opportunity for themselves to improve their community.

Re: Condo boards everywhere are unprepared for serious repairs

#79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Housing is a big exception to this. https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2017/nov/16/japan-reusabl... > Unlike in other countries, Japanese homes gradually depreciate over time, becoming completely valueless within 20 or 30 years. When someone moves out of a home or dies, the house, unlike the land it sits on, has no resale value and is typically demolished. This scrap-and-build approach is a quirk of the Japanese hous…

I do not think that is incongruent to thinking long term. Creating unnecessarily resilient buildings is a misallocation or resources and a problem if it’s own. If you think there will be volatility in the long term, then investing in flexibility is the right long term play.

What is the right term? I think Japan has gone too far, but on the other hand I've also seen what the rich lived in 2000 years ago - I prefer the apartments the poor in the US live in today. (note that I'm excluding poor in other countries and poor that can't get into an apartment for whatever reason - these groups have worse situations than the above)

Even houses built 120 years ago are things I'm not sure I'd want. Since then we have go indoor plumbing and electric. We are fortunate that modern AC is mostly easy to retrofit into the common forced air furnace systems of the past. I've faced the pain of running cat-3 network cables into houses I've lived in (I just missed rg-58), now I question if cat-5 cables are worth replacing. I have no idea what will change about houses next, but I suspect my house of the future will need changes that don't fit well with the house of today.

Re: Condo boards everywhere are unprepared for serious repairs

#80
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything is fine and dandy when everyone is experiencing growth. But there is a point where when sacrifices need to be made, things start getting tribal real fast. I think there is an underlying trend of that due to certain populations’ socioeconomic status slipping, and I think with the slowdown in population growth, we will be seeing more if it as society decides how to allocate fewer resources.

Maybe the area I grew up I was different. Economical depressed areas like much of Appalachia tend to have a good community atmosphere. I wouldn't be surprised if that's just small towns in general though. You look out for yourself, but you help your neighbors. You want something new, like equiptment in the park? Raise the money with fundraisers, find volunteers to build/install/maintain it, etc. These are the people…

That’s exactly the mechanic I’m talking about. Tribal - we’ll raise money for our neighborhood park, but of course they have money since their ancestors got there first (or maybe worked harder?) and passed down their land or whatever other structural advantages.

In your example, the neighbors are the tribe. The other people on the other side of town who are poorer, for various reasons, simply will not get a park.

However, if the economy is growing and everyone is moving up the ladder, then it will be easier to spread the fruits around to everyone. You are likelier to support taxes and condo fees to assist others, since you yourself are not stagnating or moving down the ladder.

Post reply on HN