Two Portland delivery companies revolt against Amazon, shut down • Hacker News Board

Re: Two Portland delivery companies revolt against Amazon, shut down

#281

Post by KillahBhyte » Fri, Jul 02, 2021, 7:28 PM UTC

crazygringo wrote: post #276

KillahBhyte wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There may be some sampling bias as you point out, but it is still crazy from my perspective. I would suspect that UPS and the other major carriers have optimized this task to death. With the right bundling and route optimization for a specific city or set of parcels I could see some level of improvement due to the things you mention. But 200-300% efficiency gains over businesses that have been profitably providing th…

> I would suspect that UPS and the other major carriers have optimized this task to death. In the end a great deal of it comes down to volume per delivery location . If UPS is delivering 1 package per day per location, there's nothing they can do to optimize (except skip locations certain days, which nobody wants). It sucks for them. Then Amazon comes along with 5 packages per day per location, and it changes the eco…

Agreed on your first point of volume and we're not given enough detail around 2 separate and only tangentially related metrics to make any real conclusions. That said; I did consider this briefly but even then the math to make that work still seems extreme. Are Amazon packages making up that much of our parcel these days? 3-to-1 or 5-to-1 would certainly change the economics for this to make more sense, but are they truly responsible for 75%-85% of all parcels these days? Even if we select for residential only I feel like that is super high.

Then again my monkey brain sucks at statistics and considering the last year or so of my own home usage it is probably close to 1-to-1. And we try to avoid Amazon. So probably a lot closer to those numbers above than I'm comfortable to admit.

Re: Two Portland delivery companies revolt against Amazon, shut down

#282

Post by softwaredoug » Fri, Jul 02, 2021, 7:39 PM UTC

paulpauper wrote: post #171

softwaredoug wrote: post #119

> "The companies were losing money and employees trying to satisfy Amazon and their constant abusive changes,” Tom Rask, an attorney for Last Mile and Triton, told Motherboard. "You have to hire numerous drivers who may or may not be working. One day Amazon dictates that you have thirty routes, the next day forty, then the day after twenty. You’re supposed to have enough drivers for back-up while Amazon is lowering p…

Freelancing just sounds awful for this reason. Yeah some ppl can make a lot but still seems like an awful way to make money if you are an american. Consulting is somewhat different

Yes you work on sales to get the contract. Then often you must continue the sale to use the hours. Some people thrive on this. But it can be exhausting.

Re: Two Portland delivery companies revolt against Amazon, shut down

#283

Post by crazygringo » Fri, Jul 02, 2021, 7:53 PM UTC

KillahBhyte wrote: post #281

crazygringo wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would suspect that UPS and the other major carriers have optimized this task to death. In the end a great deal of it comes down to volume per delivery location . If UPS is delivering 1 package per day per location, there's nothing they can do to optimize (except skip locations certain days, which nobody wants). It sucks for them. Then Amazon comes along with 5 packages per day per location, and it changes the eco…

Agreed on your first point of volume and we're not given enough detail around 2 separate and only tangentially related metrics to make any real conclusions. That said; I did consider this briefly but even then the math to make that work still seems extreme. Are Amazon packages making up that much of our parcel these days? 3-to-1 or 5-to-1 would certainly change the economics for this to make more sense, but are they…

In my apartment building in NYC, Amazon packages are absolutely at least 75% of total deliveries, no question. Everything's left in the lobby so it's easy to see.

Probably not higher than 85% though. And of the rest, the next biggest category is packages from clothing stores like J. Crew, Nike, Madewell, etc.

(Also this isn't including groceries or DoorDash, just talking about traditional packages.)

Re: Two Portland delivery companies revolt against Amazon, shut down

#284

Post by Arnt » Fri, Jul 02, 2021, 7:58 PM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #262

softwaredoug wrote: post #119

> "The companies were losing money and employees trying to satisfy Amazon and their constant abusive changes,” Tom Rask, an attorney for Last Mile and Triton, told Motherboard. "You have to hire numerous drivers who may or may not be working. One day Amazon dictates that you have thirty routes, the next day forty, then the day after twenty. You’re supposed to have enough drivers for back-up while Amazon is lowering p…

> their constant abusive changes What does their contract with Amazon say? Who would sign a contract that permits "constant abusive changes"?

Don't know what it says, but I know people who've signed contracts expecting the usual behaviour. I know a contract that promised action based on change requests within x business days, oops, the new customer sent 2000 change requests in a few months, more than the total of all older customers had sent in in years. Surprise!

You may have heard the story about the Colo/ISP that signed up a large new customer (you know the name) with 95th percentile pricing for IP traffic and unlimited power to the cage? The ISP signed a contract that said 95th percentile pricing and expected the usual usage curve, the customer made sure the curve was a very different one. And used (much)_more power in the cage than the ISP had ever seen, too.

Re: Two Portland delivery companies revolt against Amazon, shut down

#285

Post by WalterBright » Fri, Jul 02, 2021, 8:04 PM UTC

Arnt wrote: post #284

WalterBright wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> their constant abusive changes What does their contract with Amazon say? Who would sign a contract that permits "constant abusive changes"?

Don't know what it says, but I know people who've signed contracts expecting the usual behaviour. I know a contract that promised action based on change requests within x business days, oops, the new customer sent 2000 change requests in a few months, more than the total of all older customers had sent in in years. Surprise! You may have heard the story about the Colo/ISP that signed up a large new customer (you know…

> expecting the usual behaviour

Common advice is "put the expectations in the contract". For a significant sized ISP, this shouldn't have been the first dance they were invited to.

For example, when I bought an Adjustable Rate Mortgage, I made sure the contract stipulated when the rates would be adjusted, and what formula would be used to adjust them. Not "whenever the bank wanted to change them, and to whatever rate they wanted to."

Re: Two Portland delivery companies revolt against Amazon, shut down

#286

Post by KillahBhyte » Fri, Jul 02, 2021, 8:11 PM UTC

crazygringo wrote: post #283

KillahBhyte wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed on your first point of volume and we're not given enough detail around 2 separate and only tangentially related metrics to make any real conclusions. That said; I did consider this briefly but even then the math to make that work still seems extreme. Are Amazon packages making up that much of our parcel these days? 3-to-1 or 5-to-1 would certainly change the economics for this to make more sense, but are they…

In my apartment building in NYC, Amazon packages are absolutely at least 75% of total deliveries, no question. Everything's left in the lobby so it's easy to see. Probably not higher than 85% though. And of the rest, the next biggest category is packages from clothing stores like J. Crew, Nike, Madewell, etc. (Also this isn't including groceries or DoorDash, just talking about traditional packages.)

Dang. Then consider that the 400+ packages was self selected by Portland carriers as some of the worst examples, and 120 deliveries a route is a national average.. It gets murky quick trying to pull anything useful from this especially with it being Vice looking for an editorial angle.

As with most things like this, the numbers seem scary until you peel back the layers. Not a pass to Amazon as the rest of the article is damning in its own right, but a little less crazy than my initial thoughts.

Re: Two Portland delivery companies revolt against Amazon, shut down

#287

Post by rurp » Fri, Jul 02, 2021, 8:17 PM UTC

avs733 wrote: post #23

rightbyte wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 400 packages a day on 10-hour routes 40 packages per hour or 90s per package. No wonder the drivers pee in bottles and work unpaid overtime to keep their jobs.

And drive in ways that put the public at risk. Even if you lack empathy about the situation of the drivers, the choices Amazon makes can impact you or someone you love and care about very quickly.

Very true. I used to commute through an area with many taxis and the amount of reckless driving and accidents I saw from them was ridiculous. I absolutely do not want a million more workers heavily incentivized to do the same.

It fits with the larger trend of corporations privitizing more profits at the expense of society as a whole.

I mean, sure, people are more likely to die in car accidents, but on the bright side Amazon can run more of their competitors out of business by driving down delivery costs! Great...

Re: Two Portland delivery companies revolt against Amazon, shut down

#288

Post by Arnt » Fri, Jul 02, 2021, 8:21 PM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #285

Arnt wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't know what it says, but I know people who've signed contracts expecting the usual behaviour. I know a contract that promised action based on change requests within x business days, oops, the new customer sent 2000 change requests in a few months, more than the total of all older customers had sent in in years. Surprise! You may have heard the story about the Colo/ISP that signed up a large new customer (you know…

> expecting the usual behaviour Common advice is "put the expectations in the contract". For a significant sized ISP, this shouldn't have been the first dance they were invited to. For example, when I bought an Adjustable Rate Mortgage, I made sure the contract stipulated when the rates would be adjusted, and what formula would be used to adjust them. Not "whenever the bank wanted to change them, and to whatever rate…

Common advice is, yes... but I know specific examples of a very large ISP that missed something like that, and a middling-sized company, and my ex charlady. Errare humanum est, I suppose.

Re: Two Portland delivery companies revolt against Amazon, shut down

#289

Post by lotsofpulp » Fri, Jul 02, 2021, 9:05 PM UTC

atsuzaki wrote: post #114

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't get Amazon's play here. According to the article, so far it’s only two delivery companies in one city, not an actual large trend across the country. When negotiating with providers and vendors at scale, it’s common for some of them to give “no bid” responses or withdraw from negotiations if they don’t think the contract will be worth their time. The only way to find true market rate is to negotiate until so…

Portland resident here, been pissed off with half of my deliveries for a birthday party this weekend getting delayed to next week then saw this article and went OH that's why. Definitely not ground to a halt, but the effects are felt and if it keeps up I'd definitely take my business elsewehre.

This is also part of the price discovery process.

Re: Two Portland delivery companies revolt against Amazon, shut down

#290

Post by Tempest1981 » Fri, Jul 02, 2021, 11:00 PM UTC

crazygringo wrote: post #37

blakesterz wrote: post #2

Wow, I guess I never really paid attention to the details behind all the Amazon headlines I see. "In April, Amazon announced it would reduce the amount it paid for drivers from $17.25 to $16.00 an hour, according to the letter...Weeks later, Amazon announced a series of raises for its drivers around the country as part of a public relations push following a union drive at an Amazon warehouse" "Currently, Amazon deliv…

> 400 seems crazy, I wondered about UPS. In cities, an Amazon delivery driver might be delivering 5, 10, or 20 packages to the same building. And in those areas where Amazon is using its own delivery network, UPS packages (non-Amazon) will be far fewer -- often just 1 or a couple or none per day. So it's not crazy. The Amazon driver might be elivering far more packages but making fewer stops. Also, a lot of those pac…

The worst are large townhouse complexes without a central mail station. You double-park your van, and may need to walk for several minutes, through identical-looking units, perhaps juggling 3 or 4 boxes on your trek. Hopefully it's not raining.