When Orcs Were Real • Hacker News Board

Re: When Orcs Were Real

#171

Post by astrobe_ » Fri, Jul 02, 2021, 5:51 PM UTC

henearkr wrote: post #63

rebuilder wrote: post #10

Why do we have to posit non-human monsters as explanations for these myths? After all, there were (and still are) real monsters out there that would kill, rape, kidnap and torture people - people from other communities. Strange danger was serious business back in the day, why could that not evolve into all kinds of boogeymen?

This is what I thought when was evoked cannibalism: what if those were the traces of sapiens festing of neanderthalis (and not neanderthalis eating neanderthalis, as seems to be supposed in the text)?

My thoughts too. Something/someone ate these corpses using tools. Also, is there some proof that it is a usual thing? Because modern humans in particular circumstances can do cannibalism too. So it seems that there are a lot of extrapolations there.

Another point seemed to me a bit far fetched: that due to anatomy Neanderthals could not speak. But there are birds that imitate pretty well human speech.

Re: When Orcs Were Real

#172

Post by shakow » Fri, Jul 02, 2021, 5:52 PM UTC

poisonarena wrote: post #99

shakow wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does not make any sense. To this measure, every last soldier in a European army until post-WWII era should be a highly trained veteran.

I think you are missing the point entirely, I am saying that there is a thing called collective military knowledge, The Spanish had experience in fighting wars for many years. This knowledge of tactics and techniques is passed on through training.

And I'm saying that virtually every country on Earth has some military knowledge. You really think that France/the German principalities/England/the Ottoman Empire/the PL Commonwealth/the Kievan Rus'/... just forgot everything after a war, and that Spain, miraculously, was the only country to understand that experience is a thing?

And do you believe that the Southern American populations religiously waited for the White Man to bring them the concept of armed conflicts, and that they lived in perfect harmony until then, miraculously oblivious to the concept of conquest and imperialism?

Re: When Orcs Were Real

#173

Post by rjsw » Fri, Jul 02, 2021, 6:01 PM UTC

SamBam wrote: post #168

I feel like either I am very confused about something, or the author is: > the population of humans dropped to as few as 50 individuals. Something terrible happened to the human race. > When did this population bottleneck occur? A number of teams have analyzed mutation rates to find out. The mutation rate in our Y chromosomes suggests the bottleneck occurred 37,000 to 49,000 years ago. Is the author really suggesting…

> Is the author really suggesting that the human population was down to 50 individuals 50,000 years ago?

The theory [1] has been around for a while.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toba_catastrophe_theory

Re: When Orcs Were Real

#174

Post by AlexSW » Fri, Jul 02, 2021, 6:09 PM UTC

mellavora wrote: post #90

AlexSW wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with the majority of what you're saying, but like so many wars throughout history, surely superior weaponry played a huge role in the conquests? Particularly here where the difference is so large. Not the only role, certainly, and maybe not the biggest (compared to disease), but a very sizable one still. I struggle to imagine Spanish success had the weapons been reversed.

By "superior weaponry" playing a role in the conquest, are you referring to Russia's successful conquest of Afghanistan in the 1980, or to the United State's successful conquest of Afghanistan in the 2000's?

This seems to me to be a very disingenuous comparison and you're not responding to my question. Are you seriously arguing that superior weaponry doesn't help in a war? I think it's reasonably clear that the situation of the Aztecs differs to the conquest of Afghanistan not only by many hundreds of years.

I am not making the statement that all winning a war takes is superior weaponry, as your strawman would suggest. It doesn't take any one factor. Many factors add up. I'm saying this is one of them.

Re: When Orcs Were Real

#175

Post by SamBam » Fri, Jul 02, 2021, 6:13 PM UTC

rjsw wrote: post #173

SamBam wrote: post #168

I feel like either I am very confused about something, or the author is: > the population of humans dropped to as few as 50 individuals. Something terrible happened to the human race. > When did this population bottleneck occur? A number of teams have analyzed mutation rates to find out. The mutation rate in our Y chromosomes suggests the bottleneck occurred 37,000 to 49,000 years ago. Is the author really suggesting…

> Is the author really suggesting that the human population was down to 50 individuals 50,000 years ago? The theory [1] has been around for a while. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toba_catastrophe_theory

10,000 humans across the globe following a large volcanic event is quite different from a huddling tribe of 50 humans following Neanderthal predation.

Re: When Orcs Were Real

#176

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jul 02, 2021, 6:17 PM UTC

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #151

littlestymaar wrote: post #54

> and carried off and raped our women. (How did you think the Neanderthal DNA got into our genome?) I don't know if Neandertals were rapist, but given the behavior of Sapiens, it wouldn't be completely surprising if it was in fact the opposite: Sapiens abducting Neandertal females and raping them…

One data point: a Homo Sapiens settlement with a child burial who was 1/8 Neanderthal. May have been born in the settlement? That original mother may have been of the settlement. Anyway three generations of mixed heritage, and still worth burying with reverence.

[deleted]

Re: When Orcs Were Real

#177

Post by birdyrooster » Fri, Jul 02, 2021, 6:20 PM UTC

midjji wrote: post #94

It makes for a good story to be sure, but probably little else. Much like the popular myth of the noble savage influencing academics of the time, contemporary popular disdain for the people and cultures of the past colors many contemporary academics. Another weird thing, So we have found evidence of the feathers of dinosaurs, but not the fur of something from 40k years ago? that seems rather unlikely. In this case, t…

Given that your cells will die at a certain temperature, this seems like congenital insensitivity to pain (CIPA).

Re: When Orcs Were Real

#178

Post by nyolfen » Fri, Jul 02, 2021, 6:23 PM UTC

abakker wrote: post #132

midjji wrote: post #94

It makes for a good story to be sure, but probably little else. Much like the popular myth of the noble savage influencing academics of the time, contemporary popular disdain for the people and cultures of the past colors many contemporary academics. Another weird thing, So we have found evidence of the feathers of dinosaurs, but not the fur of something from 40k years ago? that seems rather unlikely. In this case, t…

I always personally thought descriptions of Grendel were very much that of a silverback gorilla. Fangs, Fur, Loping gait, strength. Its a pretty good image.

grendel-as-neanderthals is actually the premise of a novel from the 1970s by michael crichton, eaters of the dead/the 13th warrior

Re: When Orcs Were Real

#179

Post by username90 » Fri, Jul 02, 2021, 6:31 PM UTC

gpm wrote: post #103

peeters wrote: post #93

So even if we accept everything being said of the Neanderthals, this is left completely undefended: > Why does every culture have legends of monstrous humanoids, and why are they are always depicted as fearsome and dangerous? Because the legends were real. The orcs were real. Is the author really suggesting that these stories are the product of an unbroken chain of 50,000 years of oral tradition? If not, what do even…

Are you suggesting that there isn't an unbroken chain of oral tradition? That for some generations in the middle every child didn't talk to their parents or other members of the older generation? It's a game of broken telephone no doubt, but I don't see how that chain could not exist.

50k years would be ~2500 generations. I doubt any traces of oral traditions are left after thousands of generations.

Re: When Orcs Were Real

#180

Post by Robotbeat » Fri, Jul 02, 2021, 6:34 PM UTC

jacobolus wrote: post #152

midjji wrote: post #94

It makes for a good story to be sure, but probably little else. Much like the popular myth of the noble savage influencing academics of the time, contemporary popular disdain for the people and cultures of the past colors many contemporary academics. Another weird thing, So we have found evidence of the feathers of dinosaurs, but not the fur of something from 40k years ago? that seems rather unlikely. In this case, t…

> chimps and gorillas for millenia and they are furry, cannibalistic, violent tribal monsters Gorillas are largely vegetarian, and generally peaceful. Humans are much better example of “violent tribal monsters” than gorillas. Cf. https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/opinions/1977/12/25/t...

Maybe you’re right about gorillas, but chimps are much more closely related to us, and they’re hyperviolent at times, engaging in (essentially) genocide, just like us humans.